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Thread: Standing in Judgment Over God?

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    tWebber
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    Standing in Judgment Over God?

    I was watching some videos about presuppositional apologetics and that made me think of some questions. You don't need to know what those videos were in order for you to understand my questions. How would you answer the following questions?

    If someone presents some evidence of Christianity to a non-Christian and then says, "follow the evidence where it leads", does this mean that he is allowing the non-Christian to stand in judgment over God?

    If a Christian says, "I could be wrong about whether God exists", does this mean that he is putting himself as the judge of whether or not God exists?

    If there is some evidence outside of the Bible that could convince a Christian that Christianity is not true, then does this mean that he doesn't really believe that the Bible is the final authority? Is he standing in judgment over the Bible?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    No.

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    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    The question doesn't make any sense. The Bereans were commended for cheking out what Paul was saying. We are to love God with all our mind and to count the cost.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I wonder what hardcore presuppers make of Psalm 34:8 (O taste and see that the Lord is good).
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  5. Amen lee_merrill, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Negatory.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    If someone presents some evidence of Christianity to a non-Christian and then says, "follow the evidence where it leads", does this mean that he is allowing the non-Christian to stand in judgment over God?
    God presents evidence for his existence and his claims, and expects the same for counter-claims:

    " 'Present your case,' says the LORD. 'Set forth your arguments,' says Jacob’s King." (Isa. 41:21)

    "Who told of this from the beginning, so we could know,
    or beforehand, so we could say, ‘He was right’?
    No one told of this,
    no one foretold it,
    no one heard any words from you.
    I was the first to tell Zion, ‘Look, here they are!’
    I gave to Jerusalem a messenger of good news." (Isa. 41:26–27)

    If there is some evidence outside of the Bible that could convince a Christian that Christianity is not true, then does this mean that he doesn't really believe that the Bible is the final authority? Is he standing in judgment over the Bible?
    The fact that the Bible is the final authority, and my recognition of that fact, are two different things. I wouldn't call coming to recognize the final authority "standing in judgment", rather it is the natural process of coming to know a fact.

    And if there was conclusive evidence that Christianity was untrue, then the Bible would not in fact be the final authority. I believe God wants us to seek the truth above all things, and thus to come to believe in him who is the Truth.

    "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves." (John 14:11)

    "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thess. 2:10)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. Amen Cow Poke, Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    The question doesn't make any sense. The Bereans were commended for cheking out what Paul was saying. We are to love God with all our mind and to count the cost.
    The Bereans were checking what Paul said with what the Scriptures were saying. What I'm talking about is different. Presuppositionalists say that if you use evidence outside of the Bible to determine whether the Bible is true, then you are judging the Bible or judging God.

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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I was watching some videos about presuppositional apologetics and that made me think of some questions. You don't need to know what those videos were in order for you to understand my questions. How would you answer the following questions?

    If someone presents some evidence of Christianity to a non-Christian and then says, "follow the evidence where it leads", does this mean that he is allowing the non-Christian to stand in judgment over God?

    If a Christian says, "I could be wrong about whether God exists", does this mean that he is putting himself as the judge of whether or not God exists?

    If there is some evidence outside of the Bible that could convince a Christian that Christianity is not true, then does this mean that he doesn't really believe that the Bible is the final authority? Is he standing in judgment over the Bible?
    1. Unless God exists, God cannot be judged. Because a God who does not do anything and who has no attributes, cannot be judged.

    2. What he would be judging is not God, but whether propositions about God are found persuasive by him.

    3. There is plenty of evidence of that sort. An admission that it exists, is not the same as an admission that it is convincing, or even persuasive - let alone well-founded.

    4. A response to the Bible, can take the form of judgement of it of the kind described - or, of submission to it. Or, of a believing and faith-filled submission to it, which does not exclude criticism of elements in it. For instance, a believing Christian may well have a very low estimate of some of its contents because they are unworthy of the highest and noblest elements in what it reveals about God. A Christian who rejects the picture of God revealed in a chapter such as 1 Sam. 15 may well be doing so because that picture falls short not only of the God of the Prophets, but, crucially, of the God revealed in Jesus Christ. So there is, in such a case, an element of criticism - but it is based on what Scripture shows God to be like.

    So this last pair of questions raises quite a complicated issue. The true revelation of God is not a book, but a Divine Person. This is not a sidelining of the authority of the Bible, but a refusal to give to it the primacy and ultimacy and “canonicity” that belong to Christ alone. The Bible is important, of that there can be no doubt. But it is not Christ, not His Father, not His Holy Spirit.

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    tWebber
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    The fact that the Bible is the final authority, and my recognition of that fact, are two different things. I wouldn't call coming to recognize the final authority "standing in judgment", rather it is the natural process of coming to know a fact.
    Is there a difference between coming to recognize which book has the final authority and a criteria for determining which book is the word of God? If someone says, "I believe that the Bible is the word of God because it passes the criteria for deciding which book is the word of God", does he believe that the criteria is the final authority?
    Last edited by Hornet; 03-19-2020 at 05:36 PM.

  12. #10
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Is there a difference between coming to recognize which book has the final authority and a criteria for determining which book is the word of God?
    I don't believe there is a substantial difference, there do need to be some criteria for coming to recognize which book has final authority.

    If someone says, "I believe that the Bible is the word of God because it passes the criteria for deciding which book is the word of God", does he believe that the criteria is the final authority?
    No, the criteria lead us to belief, "believe on the evidence of the works themselves", said Jesus, of his own claim to be the Messiah. I would prefer to use the word "evidence", rather than "criteria" here, since God offers evidence for trusting in his word.

    "As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
    and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
    and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
    so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
    but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:10–11)

    God's word accomplishes its purpose, faith comes through hearing the word (Rom. 10:17), verses like these give evidence that the Bible is God's word. And evidence is embodied in God's word, so it's not separate criteria that judge the word.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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