Donald Trump and the Coronavirus

[shunyadragon]

Same reason they blamed Trump for "breaking up families" when they try to enter the country illegally when that was what they've been doing for years.

OMB*

* ORANGE MAN BAD!

Not the subject of the thread. The problem with Trump, among many, is that he failed to provide the leadership to proactively and aggressively deal with it, and ridiculed its seriousness as a pandemic. He made many conflicting false statements, and compounded by Fauci's ridiculous claims of 100,00 to 200,000 possible casualties. Now it's maybe 240,000, which virtually impossible considering the documented casualty rate.

Yes OMB big time.

[carpedm9587]

So why are you blaming Trump, for something that has been ongoing for the past 40 years?

I made no such comment, so I have no response.

[carpedm9587]

Same reason they blamed Trump for "breaking up families" when they try to enter the country illegally when that was what they've been doing for years.

OMB*

* ORANGE MAN BAD!

The emphasized part is a false narrative. The comment about Trump is true.

[lilpixieofterror]

I made no such comment, so I have no response.

So you’ve made no comment about medical supply shortages?

[carpedm9587]

So you’ve made no comment about medical supply shortages?

Yes - we have medical supply shortages, and the Trump administration has (and still is) moving slowly to address it. As far as I have been able to tell, no one has made the case that America lacks the capacity to manufacture the required supplies. What appears to be lacking is an invocation of the Defense Production Act and managing the logistics so that a) states are not bidding against each other for supplies and b) supplies are going to the most critical needs first. But it is hard to do the latter when there has been no strong priority placed on testing kits and testing. NY is the shining exception.

If you can make the case that the manufacturing facilities for the required materials do not exist in the U.S., by all means make that case. I have not seen that argument put forward and supported anywhere.

ETA: There does appear to be some motion forward on logistics and production based on this evening's news - but it is already pretty late in the day. We are now 10 weeks into this outbreak on U.S. shores.

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes - we have medical supply shortages, and the Trump administration has (and still is) moving slowly to address it. As far as I have been able to tell, no one has made the case that America lacks the capacity to manufacture the required supplies. What appears to be lacking is an invocation of the Defense Production Act and managing the logistics so that a) states are not bidding against each other for supplies and b) supplies are going to the most critical needs first. But it is hard to do the latter when there has been no strong priority placed on testing kits and testing. NY is the shining exception.

If you can make the case that the manufacturing facilities for the required materials do not exist in the U.S., by all means make that case. I have not seen that argument put forward and supported anywhere.

ETA: There does appear to be some motion forward on logistics and production based on this evening's news - but it is already pretty late in the day. We are now 10 weeks into this outbreak on U.S. shores.

And where do the medical supplies come from?

[carpedm9587]

And where do the medical supplies come from?

It depends on which supplies you're asking about, but the top U.S. manufacturers of medical supplies include Baxter, GE, Invacare, TZ, and Tri-Tech, to name a few. 2 million U.S. jobs are related to medical technology and its manufacture. U.S. medical technology is in high demand around the world. We also import medical equipment due to the size of the U.S. healthcare industry. I have not been able to find import/export percentages or narrow down import/export to classes of equipment.

Given the scale of the current pandemic, we are also scaling up orders for and imports of medical supplies from Russia, China, and the EU.

[JimL]

It depends on which supplies you're asking about, but the top U.S. manufacturers of medical supplies include Baxter, GE, Invacare, TZ, and Tri-Tech, to name a few. 2 million U.S. jobs are related to medical technology and its manufacture. U.S. medical technology is in high demand around the world. We also import medical equipment due to the size of the U.S. healthcare industry. I have not been able to find import/export percentages or narrow down import/export to classes of equipment.

Given the scale of the current pandemic, we are also scaling up orders for and imports of medical supplies from Russia, China, and the EU.

U.S. manufacturers are actually selling medical equipment, urgently needed here, to foriegn countries.

[Roy]

You claimed that: "I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, now let’s try this again, did any response plan include a country flat out lying to the entire world about a new disease spreading in country? Yes or no? In all likelihood, the virus was already here before January and was likely already starting to spread person to person. Nobody knew there was a problem because nobody was told in the early stages there was a problem."

You have no evidence for that timeframe. None.

You guys really don't keep up with the news, do you? On January 14th, the WHO posted on Twitter:

Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China����.

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/12170...on-coronavirus

Oh, look, I'm being called ignorant by some-one who can't read. My question was never about what the WHO tweeted on Jan 14th, it's about the timeframe: whether "That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was".

[Roy]

Poor Mr Nitpick, still picking nits and still too stupid to understand that repeating a lie and being a liar are two different things. I never accused the WHO of lying, I accused them of repeating lies. An established fact or is Mr Nitpick too dumb to spot the subtle difference?

You did accuse the WHO of lying, even if you didn't mean to. You said "I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, ..."

But that was never my objection - I objected to your claim about "months before".

You've now had several chances to either explain how the WHO (or even the Chinese) knew about human-to-human transmission of Covid-19 months before Jan 14th, or admit your mistake, but have chosen diversions and insults instead.

P.S. The Socratic method only works if the person using it knows the answers to the rhetorical questions they pose.

[Roy]

My emphasis:

And how much did they produce by January 1942 or had they even started to produce a single plane by the one month after war was declared?...
I ask again, how many planes were produced one month after war was declared?

So in the month after war was declared, the US produced between 1500 and 2000 military aircraft.

And did those tanks show up, over night or within a month?

Those aircraft showed up within a month. Learn to read.

[carpedm9587]

U.S. manufacturers are actually selling medical equipment, urgently needed here, to foriegn countries.

I've not seen this. Sources?

[carpedm9587]

You did accuse the WHO of lying, even if you didn't mean to. You said "I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, ..."

But that was never my objection - I objected to your claim about "months before".

You've now had several chances to either explain how the WHO (or even the Chinese) knew about human-to-human transmission of Covid-19 months before Jan 14th, or admit your mistake, but have chosen diversions and insults instead.

P.S. The Socratic method only works if the person using it knows the answers to the rhetorical questions they pose.

It also ignores the fact that the WHO did not report that the virus doesn't spread human to human - it reported that "preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission." If that is what the Chinese reported to the WHO, and the Chinese were the first with cases on the ground, then the WHO report is true. The fact that subsequent investigations found human-to-human transmission doesn't change that, and I have seen no one provide evidence that the WHO was lying.

What is happening here is simple: Trump is messing up, shifting blame (as he always does), and his base is repeating the party line. They are piling conspiracy theory on top of assumption on top of fabrication to do so, with little/no actual evidence to back up the claims. They've been ding it for four years now.

It's not worth the exchange, Roy. It's not going to stop - and they aren't going to admit it. Indeed, this post will be met with more "carpe handwaving" and more "carpe strawmen." It's SOP: if you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger. Kelly. Mattis. Vindman. Comey. Mueller. The list goes on. Person after person with pretty close to sterling reputations before having the audacity to criticize Trump have been "rolled" by this administration and its followers. And watching the parade of people bowing and scraping to Trump as the first thing they say in each briefing is nauseating. I cannot remember any other crisis in my lifetime where such obsequience to the occupant of the oval office was manifest by so many so consistently.

[Roy]

It's not worth the exchange, Roy. It's not going to stop - and they aren't going to admit it.

I know. LPOT and co will do anything to avoid admitting even blatant errors. There's no response that they wouldn't dismiss as 'handwaving' or 'nitpicking'. So they lose all credibility.

[simplicio]

Time to put the nail in your casket:

https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/statu...on-coronavirus

I await your apology.

What clear evidence was there on human to human transmission in the first half of January? the tweet was Jan 14, so the info had to come before that date. There were three to four dozen cases, and everyone was focusing on wet market. Just as you were in the middle of March! Just as the CDC and many in the US did.

The news releases from the WHO are supposed to be based on hard evidence, not assumptions or rumors. By the third week, the world did have evidence , clear evidence, of the morbidity.

There was no clear evidence of anything in the first week and a half in January. The emphasis on preventing panic was precisely the same point made on Tweb and in the US by the middle of March (in spite of the evidence.

The "WHO knew for months" line is just as batty as the claims of hoax, and devoid of reason. So it places your epithets in a strange light. Idiot. El Stupido.