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Donald Trump and the Coronavirus

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  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    El Stupido,

    You claim:

    “Intelligence agencies should have known!”

    Yet, we know they have been wrong before.

    Second, Did the exercises take into account a country lying for months on end about what was happening?

    Finally, knowing you’re being lied to and knowing what is being lied about, is two different things. You do grasp that, don’t you?


    Keep going
    Did you read the article, the intelligence agencies did know, they told the President, he largely ignored them. There's nothing further to add.

    The US wasn't prepared, it didn't prepare when it became clear that there was a problem, and Trump lied about it multiple times.

    I grasp that you're grasping at straws.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Zara View Post
      Did you read the article, the intelligence agencies did know, they told the President, he largely ignored them. There's nothing further to add.

      The US wasn't prepared, it didn't prepare when it became clear that there was a problem, and Trump lied about it multiple times.

      I grasp that you're grasping at straws.
      Ironically, the intelligence agencies under Bush ALSO knew...but their intel was filtered to give it the exact spin Bush and Cheney wanted to justify their war. In both cases - the occupant of the White House ignored their intelligence agencies - with nasty consequences. I'm amazed she brought it up.

      In any event - any engagement with Pix will be endless until you decide to get off. She'll spin tangent after tangent into the discussion until you have no clue what the original argument was about, and at least half of it will have nothing to do with anything you said. It's a tactic. That along with changing the message of your posts and then arguing nonstop against her straw men. I've learned to get off early when her tangents start to manifest. You have to tolerate the parting shots...but they're not that good so...


      Just FYI....
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        El Stupido,

        So did Bush, how well did that turn out about the whole WMD thing?

        I know this is hard for you to grasp, but:

        - intelligence agencies have been wrong.
        - knowing someone is lying and know what they are lying about, is two different things.

        Come back when you can deal with these points because history is filled with mismanaged crisis, no matter what that letter at the end of their name is.
        Bush also failed miserably in many aspect including especially the Middle East
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Zara View Post
          Did you read the article, the intelligence agencies did know, they told the President, he largely ignored them. There's nothing further to add.
          Evidence please.

          The US wasn't prepared, it didn't prepare when it became clear that there was a problem, and Trump lied about it multiple times.
          And what precisely were they supposed to prepare for and when did they know? Be specific.

          I grasp that you're grasping at straws.
          Irony at its finest.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Bush also failed miserably in many aspect including especially the Middle East
            So trust your intelligence, but don’t.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Ironically, the intelligence agencies under Bush ALSO knew...but their intel was filtered to give it the exact spin Bush and Cheney wanted to justify their war. In both cases - the occupant of the White House ignored their intelligence agencies - with nasty consequences. I'm amazed she brought it up.
              I see, so the intelligence agencies lied to Congress too and nobody bothered to come forth and accuse the Bush admin of lying? Anyone come forth to Congress and tell the truth?

              In any event - any engagement with Pix will be endless until you decide to get off. She'll spin tangent after tangent into the discussion until you have no clue what the original argument was about, and at least half of it will have nothing to do with anything you said. It's a tactic. That along with changing the message of your posts and then arguing nonstop against her straw men. I've learned to get off early when her tangents start to manifest. You have to tolerate the parting shots...but they're not that good so...
              And carp will simply handwave away anything that proves his narrative wrong. If he doesn’t like the details, ignore it and hope it goes away or simply accuse people of lying, even when he flat out said he wouldn’t mind some suffering, to keep Trump from being elected.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                So trust your intelligence, but don’t.
                Bush/Cheney didn't have to trust the intelligence, they directed their intelligence. They didn't go to war in Iraq because of intelligence, they went because they planned on going and directed the intelligence thusly. Colon Powell knew it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Bush/Cheney didn't have to trust the intelligence, they directed their intelligence. They didn't go to war in Iraq because of intelligence, they went because they planned on going and directed the intelligence thusly. Colon Powell knew it.
                  So nobody came forth and told Congress the truth?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Evidence please.



                    And what precisely were they supposed to prepare for and when did they know? Be specific.



                    Irony at its finest.
                    What were they supposed to prepare for? A pandemic response. And they did have contingency plans prepared ahead of time, but those plans were set aside and ignored.

                    Yes China lied, but look at the timeline. They had six weeks more than we did, and moved to prevent panic and control the message. The WSJ broke the story that the Chinese were sitting on the molecular model of the virus for three days. (5 Jan to 8 Jan).

                    The narrative "China lied for months" does not really hold water. Singapore relied on information which came from China to be on the lookout for a strange form of pneumonia. And they heeded the advice. The US did not. Their first confirmed case was on 23 Jan, though many suspect it hit earlier. They took standard precautions for an epidemic.

                    Wuhan held large traditional gatherings on 19 Jan. Some in the US still want to host large gatherings. Wuhan was still an open city at the end of Jan, Seattle was an open city for how long after the first cases?

                    We knew in the middle of Jan that there was a difference of opinion between doctors in the field and the government. Sounds like the US today, a full four months into the pandemic and two months after the first recorded cases here.

                    Comment


                    • I realize the Trump base present on this forum are not going to do this, but if there are any U.S. citizens who are not sycophants to Trump present, please read this article and sign the referenced petition. At least we can make an effort to put an end to the free national Trump campaign rallies that are happening daily. Mr. Trump is shamelessly milking this crisis and using the rallies to replace the campaign rallies he can no longer have, giving him a national audience for his blather.

                      They should either hold these briefings with Pence or Fauci a the spokes person, or the news outlets should simply edit out the obvious campaigning and reduce the report to the relevant facts about the outbreak, steps taken, and information known.


                      ETA: I didn't realize the article doesn't link the petition itself. It is here. PLease sign it and share the link.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-31-2020, 07:26 AM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        I realize the Trump base present on this forum are not going to do this, but if there are any U.S. citizens who are not sycophants to Trump present, please read this article and sign the referenced petition. At least we can make an effort to put an end to the free national Trump campaign rallies that are happening daily. Mr. Trump is shamelessly milking this crisis and using the rallies to replace the campaign rallies he can no longer have, giving him a national audience for his blather.

                        They should either hold these briefings with Pence or Fauci a the spokes person, or the news outlets should simply edit out the obvious campaigning and reduce the report to the relevant facts about the outbreak, steps taken, and information known.
                        I am a US citizen who votes. And I am not a Trump fan, though I am a fan of the old religious right (which died in 2016) and a conservative of the reagan mold.

                        You are making the assumption that the braggadacio, lies, insults, and self serving spins will be a help come November. His shameless use of this crisis will come to haunt him, and will break the resolve of much of the Trump base (even some of the evangelical right).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          I am a US citizen who votes. And I am not a Trump fan, though I am a fan of the old religious right (which died in 2016) and a conservative of the reagan mold.

                          You are making the assumption that the braggadacio, lies, insults, and self serving spins will be a help come November. His shameless use of this crisis will come to haunt him, and will break the resolve of much of the Trump base (even some of the evangelical right).
                          I agree that is a possibility - but if there is one thing that Trump IS a genius at it is playing the press and the media. He knows the psychology of media and he knows how to spin it to his advantage. He has lost his rallies and now he has seen an opportunity to get in front of a national audience daily and press his campaign in the form of a "news briefing." Meanwhile, his political opponents are seriously hamstrung for media coverage and to put forward their counters to the Trump lies.

                          Unfortunately, it is a reality that lies repeated often enough are accepted as truth by a fairly significant part of the population - and this is the fact that Mr. Trump is counting on.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            What were they supposed to prepare for? A pandemic response. And they did have contingency plans prepared ahead of time, but those plans were set aside and ignored.

                            Yes China lied, but look at the timeline. They had six weeks more than we did, and moved to prevent panic and control the message. The WSJ broke the story that the Chinese were sitting on the molecular model of the virus for three days. (5 Jan to 8 Jan).

                            The narrative "China lied for months" does not really hold water. Singapore relied on information which came from China to be on the lookout for a strange form of pneumonia. And they heeded the advice. The US did not. Their first confirmed case was on 23 Jan, though many suspect it hit earlier. They took standard precautions for an epidemic.

                            Wuhan held large traditional gatherings on 19 Jan. Some in the US still want to host large gatherings. Wuhan was still an open city at the end of Jan, Seattle was an open city for how long after the first cases?

                            We knew in the middle of Jan that there was a difference of opinion between doctors in the field and the government. Sounds like the US today, a full four months into the pandemic and two months after the first recorded cases here.
                            I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, now let’s try this again, did any response plan include a country flat out lying to the entire world about a new disease spreading in country? Yes or no? In all likelihood, the virus was already here before January and was likely already starting to spread person to person. Nobody knew there was a problem because nobody was told in the early stages there was a problem.
                            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 03-31-2020, 08:37 AM.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, now let’s try this again, did any response plan include a country flat out lying to the entire world about a new disease spreading in country? Yes or no? In all likelihood, the virus was already here before January and was likely already starting to spread person to person. Nobody knew there was a problem because nobody was told in the early stages there was a problem.
                              I question the highlighting above. Source? First, months before?, the earliest known possible case was ~Dec 12?.

                              Second, this is the time line with WHO, which is documented.

                              Source: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200121-sitrep-1-2019-ncov.pdf


                              SUMMARY
                              Event highlights from 31 December 2019 to 20 January 2020:
                              • On 31 December 2019, the WHO China Country Office was informed of cases of pneumonia
                              unknown etiology (unknown cause) detected in Wuhan City, Hubei Province of China. From
                              31 December 2019 through 3 January 2020, a total of 44 case-patients with pneumonia of
                              unknown etiology were reported to WHO by the national authorities in China. During this
                              reported period, the causal agent was not identified.
                              • On 11 and 12 January 2020, WHO received further detailed information from the National
                              Health Commission China that the outbreak is associated with exposures in one seafood
                              market in Wuhan City.
                              • The Chinese authorities identified a new type of coronavirus, which was isolated on 7
                              January 2020.
                              • On 12 January 2020, China shared the genetic sequence of the novel coronavirus for
                              countries to use in developing specific diagnostic kits.
                              • On 13 January 2020, the Ministry of Public Health, Thailand reported the first imported case
                              of lab-confirmed novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) from Wuhan, Hubei Province, China.
                              • On 15 January 2020, the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare, Japan (MHLW) reported an
                              imported case of laboratory-confirmed 2019-novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) from Wuhan,
                              Hubei Province, China.
                              • On 20 January 2020, National IHR Focal Point (NFP) for Republic of Korea reported the first
                              case of novel coronavirus in the Republic of Korea.
                              Situation update:
                              • As of 20 January 2020, 282 confirmed cases of 2019-nCoV have been reported from four
                              countries including China (278 cases), Thailand (2 cases), Japan (1 case) and the Republic of
                              Korea (1 case);
                              • Cases in Thailand, Japan and Republic of Korea were exported from Wuhan City, China;
                              • Among the 278 cases confirmed in China, 258 cases were reported from Hubei Province, 14
                              from Guangdong Province, five from Beijing Municipality and one from Shanghai Municipality;
                              ZIKA VIRUS
                              Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
                              SITUATION REPORT - 1
                              21 JANUARY 2020
                              2
                              • Of the 278 confirmed cases, 51 cases are severely ill1
                              , 12 are in critical condition2
                              • Six deaths have been reported from Wuhan City

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                I noticed you flat ignored that as late as Jan 14th, the WHO was reporting that the virus wasn’t spreading human to human. That was a lie, they had to have known for months before that it was, now let’s try this again, did any response plan include a country flat out lying to the entire world about a new disease spreading in country? Yes or no? In all likelihood, the virus was already here before January and was likely already starting to spread person to person. Nobody knew there was a problem because nobody was told in the early stages there was a problem.
                                Do you seriously believe the CDC intentionally lied about the pandemic, knowing the information was false?
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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