Islam: Allah has no son

[JonathanL]

Christian "claim" would not have been necessary if they had followed the message of the Jewish Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the first place. Instead they made up a (non-biblical ) premise of "original sin" to explain the crucifixion and link it to (unjust) claims of "salvation". Neither Judaism nor Islam need a crucifixion to explain God's mercy or salvation....and neither religion has "original sin".

Christians did and does follow the message of Jesus. Original Sin, Salvation and all the other fundamentals of the Christian faith are revelations from God, not something Christians "made up". What need (rabbinical) Judaism and Islam, as false religions, need or has for crucifixion and original sin, is neither here nor there.

[rogue06]

watch the video for a more in-depth understanding of ahadith.

The "sayings" (hadith) of the Prophet are a tool used by scholars. One of the uses is in Tafsir (exegesis) tradition, along with the "israeliyat", the sira (Biography of the Prophet), azbab ul-nuzul (context/circumstance of revelation) ....etc to interpret the Quran. The average Muslim does not go about studying all the ahadith. It is not necessary...unless one is doing some type of scholarly work/research...etc. It is a very necessary scholarly tool---and it is unfortunate if some Muslims are unable to recognize this--- Islam is not "orthodoxy" (system of belief) but "a way of life" and from the time of the Prophet(pbuh) a community developed based on the systematic and systemic implementation of the principles of ethics/morality, rules/law advocated in the Quran.

The Prophet (pbuh) is NOT God. He is a human being who was given an extraordinary responsibility by God. In everyday life--the Prophet speaks in the 7th century context of the Arabian peninsula--with all the characteristics and hyperbole of common speech. Muslim scholars who study ahadith know this and understand the context surrounding a given "saying" so that they can interpret it. To compare---the Jewish tradition also has rabbi or scholars who study the various aspects of Jewish thought, philosophy and law for their Jewish communities.

Likewise, Sunna/ahadith are important tools in the formation of the Sharia "system" which includes Fiqh (Jurisprudence)---however, the average Muslim is NOT a lawyer or philosopher or a wisdom teacher/scholar. Most average Muslims pray, read Quran, and go about their daily lives.

The Quran is a very important text for all "systems" of life from ethics of relationships between parents/children, spouses, to communities and nations, to commerce/economy, jurisprudence, science, philosophy...etc However, the Quran is slim book considering the vast array of subjects/themes it covers. Therefore, its implementation into "systems" requires human intellect, reason, and ingenuity.

the complexity of ahadith tradtion....

Very little of this had anything to do with my post.

But I agree with you that the average Muslim has never read any of the ahadith. That's why so many are gobsmacked when you start citing this sacred literature to them. And when they discover what they contain... No wonder some modern Muslims seek to disassociate Islam from them.

[Christian3]

Christians did and does follow the message of Jesus. Original Sin, Salvation and all the other fundamentals of the Christian faith are revelations from God, not something Christians "made up". What need (rabbinical) Judaism and Islam, as false religions, need or has for crucifixion and original sin, is neither here nor there.

Are you aware that there is only one tree mentioned in the Qur'an -- the tree of eternity also know as the tree of immortality?

The tree of eternity would be equivalent to the Tree of Life in the Bible.

There is not mention of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Qur'an

According to Christianity and Judaism Adam and Eve were to live forever because they had access to the Tree of Life.

No so, in the Qur'an.

Islam teaches that Adam and Eve were not supposed to live forever and their sin was eating of the Tree of Eternity.

[siam]

You are avoiding my point.

According to Islam, Allah wanted to save Jesus from the humiliation of death on the cross.

However, did Allah accomplish his goal?

No, he did not. Why? Because this look-a-like was thought to be Jesus, so JesusÂ’ reputation was still tarnished by AllahÂ’s deception,

because,

the Jews and Romans still thought they had killed Jesus. The look-a-like solved nothing. Jesus in the eyes of the then world was still one of a crucified and humiliated prophet, dying as a false prophet in the eyes of the then world and His ministry was terminated.

I have to wonder why Allah would make it appear that Jesus was crucified by using a look-a-like when he simply could have translated Jesus into heaven, thus making Jesus disappear before everyoneÂ’s eyes.


What was the Message of Jesus? What was Jesus' gospel?

What is YOUR definition of the concept of "original sin"?

Jews believe sin started with Adam and Eve.

Jewish Rabbi Joseph Tellushkin said that we don't sin because Adam sinned but we sin as Adam did.

Crucifixion/lack thereof was not meant "to solve" anything---it is a completely unimportant event/non-event. The Jews had already chosen their destiny---what happens after this decision is not important anymore. As for the Christians---they forgot that Jesus Christ was a Jew who believed in, and followed the Shema---the Christians proceeded to make Jesus into a God and part of a triune. This broke the Shema---the core belief of Jesus Christ(pbuh).

God is most merciful, most compassionate. He does not need the messy, confusing premises and theories that Christians came up with in order to forgive. He forgives whomever he pleases, whenever he pleases.
God does not need human acknowledgement for what he does. Our acknowledgement of God is for our own sake--for our souls. God does not need it.

God created Satan so that humanity/Adam would have an opportunity to exercise their free-will. Prophet Adam exercised his free-will---which is a God-given right---Christians and Jews exercised their free-will in the choices they made. However, God is most compassionate, most merciful, and sincere Jews and Christians will have God's blessings.....because God forgives whomever he wants---that HIS right---not ours to decide.
Quran 2:62---Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
God, most compassionate, most merciful gave Adam knowledge and truth after he repented. Likewise, God sent a last message and truth---the Quran---as a guide to humanity. Jews and Christians can use the wisdom of the Quran for the benefit of themselves, their community, and of humanity or they can convert to Islam---or they can again choose to reject God's message. God has given us/humanity the right to choose.

[siam]

Christians did and does follow the message of Jesus. Original Sin, Salvation and all the other fundamentals of the Christian faith are revelations from God, not something Christians "made up". What need (rabbinical) Judaism and Islam, as false religions, need or has for crucifixion and original sin, is neither here nor there.

Jesus was a Jew who believed in the Shema. All a Christian needs to do is to pray directly to the "One God" as Jesus Christ prayed. Leave the rest of the "mysteries" for God to decide upon.
Jesus taught how to pray to the One God right?...the Lord's prayer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

[Dan Zebiri]

The author of the koran makes dubious claims about the previous Scriptures. It claims the Torah / Taurat, Psalms / Zabur and Gospel / Injil has to be in the same style, mould and format as the koran.

Ask any observant and intelligent Jew if their OT Scriptures are anything like the koran in format and style and they will laugh at you till the cows come home!

Take the Psalms (“Zaboor” in the Arabic koran) for instance, it is NOTHING at all like the koran. Psalms 23, 42, 100, 136, 139, 145 etc as samples of the standard Psalms are the very opposite of the contents of the koran that were allegedly given in reported speech, purportedly from God via the angel Gabriel. Many Koran verses begin with the word “Qul” or “Say”… & supposed to be followed by the words, commands and instructions of God in reported speech.

Whereas, observe the stark DIFFERENCE in Psalm 23 which are the inspired words and praises of David:

“The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, He makes me lie down in green pastures..”


The overwhelming majority of the contents of the Psalms are NOT anything like what Muhamed made in the Koran – because Muhd wanted it to be the words of his god “that descended from the mother of the book/s in the heavens” (QS97/4) – so it had best to be in reported speech. Totally UNLIKE the contents of BOTH the Gospel and the Psalms, and the same difference is quite apparent in the Torah – the first five Books of Moses.

When Muhamed, islam and muslim missionaries try to retrospectively force their koranic “mould” upon the Torah, Psalms and Gospel and they just won’t fit that mould, then the scenario gets amusing. Muslim dawagandists, Islamic polemics and muhamed himself start accusing that Christians and Jews that they have “altered and corrupted” the 3 earlier books!

How amusingly convenient, as usual!

It is just a convenient trick to justify the production of the koran, by discrediting the Sacred Scriptures that existed over millenia and centuries before it. This is nothing more than a wanton ploy and one of the oldest trick in the book to get the koran accepted as a ‘replacement over the Torah, Psalms and Gospel” that islam tries so hard to sell to unintelligent, unsuspecting and gullible people who don’t know the real facts.

That is why we have to expose this facetious deception promoted by the muslim preachers.

The author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel:

3:48: And He will teach him the Book, and [the] wisdom, and the Taurat, and the Injeel.

I wonder what the author of the Qur'an thought the Gospel was?

[Christian3]

Crucifixion/lack thereof was not meant "to solve" anything---it is a completely unimportant event/non-event. The Jews had already chosen their destiny---what happens after this decision is not important anymore. As for the Christians---they forgot that Jesus Christ was a Jew who believed in, and followed the Shema---the Christians proceeded to make Jesus into a God and part of a triune. This broke the Shema---the core belief of Jesus Christ(pbuh).

God is most merciful, most compassionate. He does not need the messy, confusing premises and theories that Christians came up with in order to forgive. He forgives whomever he pleases, whenever he pleases.
God does not need human acknowledgement for what he does. Our acknowledgement of God is for our own sake--for our souls. God does not need it.

God created Satan so that humanity/Adam would have an opportunity to exercise their free-will. Prophet Adam exercised his free-will---which is a God-given right---Christians and Jews exercised their free-will in the choices they made. However, God is most compassionate, most merciful, and sincere Jews and Christians will have God's blessings.....because God forgives whomever he wants---that HIS right---not ours to decide.
Quran 2:62---Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
God, most compassionate, most merciful gave Adam knowledge and truth after he repented. Likewise, God sent a last message and truth---the Quran---as a guide to humanity. Jews and Christians can use the wisdom of the Quran for the benefit of themselves, their community, and of humanity or they can convert to Islam---or they can again choose to reject God's message. God has given us/humanity the right to choose.

The Shema has already been explained to you:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post731489

Christians worship only one God.

You are still avoiding my point -- your Allah's plan was one of deception.

[Christian3]

Jesus was a Jew who believed in the Shema. All a Christian needs to do is to pray directly to the "One God" as Jesus Christ prayed. Leave the rest of the "mysteries" for God to decide upon.
Jesus taught how to pray to the One God right?...the Lord's prayer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

Christians pray to only one God.

Jesus also said:

"I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it" (John 14:13–14, New International Version).

[Christian3]

The author of the koran makes dubious claims about the previous Scriptures. It claims the Torah / Taurat, Psalms / Zabur and Gospel / Injil has to be in the same style, mould and format as the koran.

Ask any observant and intelligent Jew if their OT Scriptures are anything like the koran in format and style and they will laugh at you till the cows come home!

Take the Psalms (“Zaboor” in the Arabic koran) for instance, it is NOTHING at all like the koran. Psalms 23, 42, 100, 136, 139, 145 etc as samples of the standard Psalms are the very opposite of the contents of the koran that were allegedly given in reported speech, purportedly from God via the angel Gabriel. Many Koran verses begin with the word “Qul” or “Say”… & supposed to be followed by the words, commands and instructions of God in reported speech.

Whereas, observe the stark DIFFERENCE in Psalm 23 which are the inspired words and praises of David:

“The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, He makes me lie down in green pastures..”


The overwhelming majority of the contents of the Psalms are NOT anything like what Muhamed made in the Koran – because Muhd wanted it to be the words of his god “that descended from the mother of the book/s in the heavens” (QS97/4) – so it had best to be in reported speech. Totally UNLIKE the contents of BOTH the Gospel and the Psalms, and the same difference is quite apparent in the Torah – the first five Books of Moses.

When Muhamed, islam and muslim missionaries try to retrospectively force their koranic “mould” upon the Torah, Psalms and Gospel and they just won’t fit that mould, then the scenario gets amusing. Muslim dawagandists, Islamic polemics and muhamed himself start accusing that Christians and Jews that they have “altered and corrupted” the 3 earlier books!

How amusingly convenient, as usual!

It is just a convenient trick to justify the production of the koran, by discrediting the Sacred Scriptures that existed over millenia and centuries before it. This is nothing more than a wanton ploy and one of the oldest trick in the book to get the koran accepted as a ‘replacement over the Torah, Psalms and Gospel” that islam tries so hard to sell to unintelligent, unsuspecting and gullible people who don’t know the real facts.

That is why we have to expose this facetious deception promoted by the muslim preachers.

Since the author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel and Jesus' dead and resurrection are at the core of the Gospel and the author of the Qur'an denies Jesus' death and resurrection then the author of the Qur'an did not know what the Gospel was.

[Dan Zebiri]

Quite right, Christian3. The after-the-facts koranic claims and its ludicrous post-Gospel narratives - by a material separation of 700-800 years at least, contradicts the Gospel fundamentals in matters of verifiable facts like the birth, life, ministry and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. No reputable historian or scholar, Christian or otherwise would deny the validity of those four areas, today. Particularly Jesus Christ's crucifixion as a historical event and verifiable fact that really occurred in time and space and as objectively proven. Bart Ehrman will be the first to establish & defend Jesus Christ's crucifixion as a historical event.

In fact, no reputable scholar of religion and historian takes ANY islamic source seriously to study the life, teachings and ministry of Jesus Christ or to trace His life and times from the verifiable historical standpoint. The Koran, hadith and sunna of Islam are simply unreliable sources to them for such historical analysis or study.

So the koran does not know, much less understand what the real Gospel was because it denies the central tenet of the Christ event which is the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago. And by founding its anti-Christian polemics on verses like 4/157, 6/101, 72/3 etc the koran betrays its Allah as ignorant and its 'message' as trivial and factually irrelevant, you are quite right.

Since the author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel and Jesus' dead and resurrection are at the core of the Gospel and the author of the Qur'an denies Jesus' death and resurrection then the author of the Qur'an did not know what the Gospel was.

[JonathanL]

Jesus was a Jew who believed in the Shema. All a Christian needs to do is to pray directly to the "One God" as Jesus Christ prayed. Leave the rest of the "mysteries" for God to decide upon.
Jesus taught how to pray to the One God right?...the Lord's prayer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

The same scriptures where Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer and where he affirmed the Shema, are also the scriptures that testify to Jesus divinity, His pre-existence, His taking on human nature, His death and resurrection, and His oneness with the Father. If you accept what the NT says about Jesus words on the Shema and the Lord's prayer, you have no reason not to accept them when they testify about Jesus, and about what Jesus claimed about Himself.

And yes, I do leave the "mysteries" for God to "decide" upon. And what God "decided" is found in the Christian scriptures.

[siam]

The same scriptures where Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer and where he affirmed the Shema, are also the scriptures that testify to Jesus divinity, His pre-existence, His taking on human nature, His death and resurrection, and His oneness with the Father. If you accept what the NT says about Jesus words on the Shema and the Lord's prayer, you have no reason not to accept them when they testify about Jesus, and about what Jesus claimed about Himself.

And yes, I do leave the "mysteries" for God to "decide" upon. And what God "decided" is found in the Christian scriptures.

The Quran says Prophet Jesus(pbuh) never said he was God---but always taught people to worship the One God.
Therefore, if Christians want to deceive themselves with indirect claims---that is upto them. Its a matter between them and God. After all, nothing personally said (or written, or dictated) by Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself is there as direct evidence.
As a Muslim, I firmly believe that as a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ would never break the Shema/Tawheed---Just as all Prophets of God, throughout time, have never broken it.

[siam]

Since the author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel and Jesus' dead and resurrection are at the core of the Gospel and the author of the Qur'an denies Jesus' death and resurrection then the author of the Qur'an did not know what the Gospel was.

If that is all there is---then there is not much wisdom in it......

[siam]

Bart Ehrman---
EHRMAN: Well, what I argue in the book is that during his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God and that none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. The way it works is that you do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, our last Gospel. Jesus says things like: Before Abraham was, I am, and I and the father are one, and if you've seen me, you've see the father.

These are all statements that you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier Gospels, and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things about him. I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make.

So this is not an unusual view among scholars. It's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understand of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/300246095

[JonathanL]

The Quran says Prophet Jesus(pbuh) never said he was God---but always taught people to worship the One God.
Therefore, if Christians want to deceive themselves with indirect claims---that is upto them. Its a matter between them and God. After all, nothing personally said (or written, or dictated) by Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself is there as direct evidence.
As a Muslim, I firmly believe that as a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ would never break the Shema/Tawheed---Just as all Prophets of God, throughout time, have never broken it.

What the Quran, which is not a trustworthy document when it comes to the life and sayings of Jesus, claims Jesus said or didn't say, is completely irrelevant, and should be ignored completely, except for when it agrees with the NT. The most reliable source we have for what Jesus said, did and endured is found in the writings of the NT.

As to the Shema and Tawheed, Jesus did not break the Shema, but the Shema is not the Tawheed, and there is nothing that indicates that he assented to the Tawheed. Furthermore, it was not until followers of Jesus started claiming that Jesus was divine that the Jews started to interpret the Shema in a way that excludes a multi-personal understanding of God. Before that the issue hadn't even been brought up before, and the Shema was mostly seen as a rejection of other beings as God, not as a rejection of the possibility that there could be multiple Persons within the one Being of God. The Shema, if read simply as it is, without importing any preconceived notions of God's unipersonality from Judaism or Islam into it, does not preclude a Trinitarian understanding of God.