Islam: Allah has no son

[YHWH RULES]

False gods are also called eloah.

I would look at the differences between Islam and Judaism. All religions have something in common.

For instance, Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah; Judaism does not.

When did I ever suggest Islam and Judaism, or Islam and the ancient Hebraic faith of Israel, is exactly the same or the same religion? I never suggested such nonsense. You're now creating a straw man argument. As far as the word Aloah in the Hebrew Bible, among others, like AL, ALOHIM, yes they can be used to identify false gods. However, American Christians will often dismiss the Arabic "Allah" as a false god on the grounds that the Arabic word "Allah" is the name of a false god or idol. That's false. The Arabic word for deity, "Allah" is related to the Hebrew "Aloah". Now if you want to question whether Muslims worship the Aloah of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that's a valid question. You should also ask the same question in respect to your Christian trinity god and man-god. From the point of view of the Hebraic, Abrahamic faith, any rational, honest person can see that the Muslim concept of Aloah, is at least, more in concordance with the original Israelite faith, than the Christian concept of a god by committee of three persons, who is also a "god man" / incarnate god.

If you want to debate whether your Christian concept of YHWH ALOAH, is supported by the Hebrew Bible, bring it on. Lay it all down and let's get into the ring. Present your evidence from the Hebrew Bible, how YHWH is three persons and a god incarnate/man god. The burden of proof is upon you, to establish that doctrine, not upon me to disprove it. Present your case, from the Hebrew Bible and I will examine it.

I would also take a look at the founder of Islam, Muhammad.

Was Muhammad a prophet foretold by the God of Israel? Muslims say he is in the following Scriptures.

Genesis 49:10 Shiloh is Mohammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18, Muslims claim Muhammad is the prophet like Moses.

Deuteronomy 33:2 The claim that Muhammad is prophesied in Deuteronomy 33:2 / With ten thousand saints?

Song of Songs 5:16

Isaiah 21:13-17 Muhammad's flight to Medina?

Isaiah 29:12 A prediction of an illiterate prophet?

Haggai 2:7 A prophecy of Muhammad?

Habakkuk 3:3 The one coming from Mt. Paran

Zechariah 9:9 Riding on a donkey - a prophecy of Umar and the victory of Islam?

Muslims can make whatever claims about Muhammad's prophethood that they want, it makes no difference to me. I follow the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as recorded and taught in the Hebrew Bible. Is it possible that Muhammad is a prophet of YHWH Aloah? Perhaps. He was an extraordinary man, who brought a large portion of the world to the faith of Abraham. He turned idolaters into strict monotheists, who worship the deity of the patriarchs of Israel. He can't be easily dismissed, with a wave of the hand. I follow the covenant of my people and nation and I respect the Muslim faith, due to its strict monotheism (tawheed).

I also see many mistakes in the Qur'an that an all-knowing God would not make.

Same can be said with every religious text, including the NT. I already explained how sacred, inspired texts, don't have to be infallible or inerrant, to guide people to the truth. The NT is full of errors and contradictions, but that I don't reject it on the bases of such textual errors. I reject mostly on the bases of its teachings and theology, which is in clear contradiction to the Hebrew scriptures and faith. THE Quran, be it perfect or not, is in better agreement, theologically, with my Israelite faith and Hebrew Bible, than Christianity.

[Cerebrum123]

False gods are also called eloah.

I would look at the differences between Islam and Judaism. All religions have something in common.

For instance, Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah; Judaism does not.

I would also take a look at the founder of Islam, Muhammad.

Was Muhammad a prophet foretold by the God of Israel? Muslims say he is in the following Scriptures.

Genesis 49:10 Shiloh is Mohammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18, Muslims claim Muhammad is the prophet like Moses.

Deuteronomy 33:2 The claim that Muhammad is prophesied in Deuteronomy 33:2 / With ten thousand saints?

Song of Songs 5:16

Isaiah 21:13-17 Muhammad's flight to Medina?

Isaiah 29:12 A prediction of an illiterate prophet?

Haggai 2:7 A prophecy of Muhammad?

Habakkuk 3:3 The one coming from Mt. Paran

Zechariah 9:9 Riding on a donkey - a prophecy of Umar and the victory of Islam?

I also see many mistakes in the Qur'an that an all-knowing God would not make.

I think it is better to focus on the nature of Allah vs that of the God of the Old and New Testaments. Allah is declared to be the "greatest of deceivers", and early Islamic sources make it clear that early Muslims believed that even they weren't safe from his deception.

Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

"makr" the Arabic word translated as "deceiver" means an act of deception aiming at causing evil. In one verse you literally have Allah command a place to do evil, and then punish them for obeying!

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16 Pickthall

Even Mohammed feared Allah's deception and was actually deceived about a battle he had been ordered to fight in.

3551. Ibn Abbas said: "The Prophet used to supplicate, saying: ‘My Lord, aid me and do not aid against me, and grant me victory and do not grant victory over me, plot (scheme/connive/deceive) for me and do not plot (scheme/connive/deceive) against me, guide me and facilitate guidance for me, grant me victory over those who transgress against me. My Lord, make me ever-grateful to You, ever-remembering of You, ever-fearful of You, ever-obedient to You, ever-humble to You, oft-turning and returning to You. My Lord, accept my repentance, wash my sin, answer my call, make firm my proof, make firm my tongue, guide my heart, and remove the treachery of my chest (Rabbi A‘inni Wa La Tu‘in ‘Alayya, Wansurni Wa La Tansur ‘Alayya, WAMKUR Li Wa La TAMKUR ‘Alayya, Wahdini Wa Yassir Lil-Huda, Wansurni ‘Ala Man Bagha ‘Alayya. Rabbij‘alni Laka Shakkaran, Laka Dhak-karan, Laka Rahhaban, Laka Mitwa‘an, Laka Mukhbitan, Ilaika Awwahan Muniba. Rabbi Taqabbal Tawabati, Waghsil Hawbati, Wa Ajib Da‘wati, Wa Thab-bit Hujjati, Wa Saddid Lisani Wahdi Qalbi, Waslu Sakhimata Sadri).’" (Sahih) …

[Abu ‘Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. (English Translation of Jami‘ At-Tirmidhi, Compiled by Imam Hafiz Abu ‘Eisa Mohammad Ibn ‘Eisa At-Tirmidhi, translated by Abu Khaliyl (USA), ahadith edited and referenced by Hafiz Tahir Zubair ‘Ali Za’i [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: November 2007], Volume 6, From Hadith No. 3291 to 3956, Chapter 45. The Book Of Supplications From The Messenger Of Allah, pp. 258-259; capital and underline emphasis ours)

When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned. S. 8:43-44 Shakir

[YHWH RULES]

I think it is better to focus on the nature of Allah vs that of the God of the Old and New Testaments.

Ok, let's do that....

Allah is declared to be the "greatest of deceivers", and early Islamic sources make it clear that early Muslims believed that even they weren't safe from his deception.

Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

"makr" the Arabic word translated as "deceiver" means an act of deception aiming at causing evil.

It's obvious that your knowledge of the Hebrew Bible and the nature of the God that revealed it, is quite limited. Yes if course, the omnipotent deity is the best of deceivers and strategists, and no mere mortal could ever outwit or deceive Him.


Jer 20:7 O YHWH, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.


Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, "Ah, YHWH God! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, You will have peace ; whereas a sword touches the throat ”


Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.



Even in your Christian "NT" we read:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



According to the Christian "NT", God will send a strong delusion to the wicked, that they may believe a lie and hence be damned as a result. Yet you have the gall to use this argument in an attempt to discredit the Muslim concept of God? That's quite odd to say the least, isn't it? Ironic. The fact is that YHWH does deceive His enemies and even tests those who claim to love Him:


Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God tests you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after YHWH your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.



There are several examples in the Hebrew Bible of YHWH, testing and deceiving people, that doesn't in anyway disqualify Him from being our righteous Creator and Lord. HALELUYAH YAHWEH!

In one verse you literally have Allah command a place to do evil, and then punish them for obeying!

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16 Pickthall

If YHWH ALOAH, has determined that a people, due to their wickedness, deserve to be deluded and deceived, then so be it. YHWH can also test his people, to see if they truly love Him and if they fail the test, they can be punished, or even destroyed. It's not you or I who determine what is good and evil, it is YHWH ALOAH, who does. Again, I can give you more examples of YHWH doing the same, so what? YHWH says:


Isa_66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.



He chooses the delusions of the wicked and destroys them. He complies, gives them their just desserts, allows them to reap their own evil. He will deceive, the ones who deserve to be deceived and will test those who claim to love him. In his infinite wisdom, he decides what to do with His creatures, not us. So your argument against the Muslim concept of God, is flawed, if its on the bases that their God, deceives or causes others to commit evil.


Exo_14:8 And YHWH hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


YHWH will hardened the heart, of those who in His infinite will, He has determined, should have their hearts hardened, to commit evil. If that's His will, that is His will, and He has His reasons. Does this support the Calvinist view of predestination and divine sovereignty? No. It does however demonstrate that if YHWH, for His own reasons, within a certain context, determines a person will serve a certain function, to accomplish His plan, He will execute His will, however He sees fit. You can debate with YHWH if you want about His decisions, but I simply accept it for what it is. YHWH tells us:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.



Exo 4:11 And YHWH said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I YHWH?

Even Mohammed feared Allah's deception and was actually deceived about a battle he had been ordered to fight in.

Psa_111:10 The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

It's good that Muhamamd feared Aloah and His ability to deceive and test. When YHWH deceives and tests, the outcome of such deception and testing, can be destruction for those who are deceived and fail His test/s. You and I will be tested, so fear YHWH and walk humbly with your ALOAH/GOD.

Job_23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.


HALELUYAH YAHWEH! KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, HEAVENLY FATHER, WHO'S THRONE IS THE HEAVENS!


Mic 6:7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy ALOHIM?

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy ALOHIM. Christians complicate that, with their mysticism and philosophy. Muslims on the other hand, are more in line with the teaching and spirit of the Hebrew Bible. Islam, one could say and convincingly argue, based on the Biblical evidence, is a more universal form of the ancient patriarchal, Israelite faith. It's a good, healthy, Abrahamic, monotheistic, religion. Christianity is a complex web and amalgamation of Biblical concepts and alien, pagan, Hellenistic philosophy and mysticism/gnosticism. A whole lot of confusion, that has nothing to do with the God of the Hebrew Bible.

It's revealing how you cite the hadith, rather than the Quran, in your attempt to invalidate Islam. That's like me citing the early church fathers or extra-biblical material, to disprove Christianity. Not a very good tactic. You should adjust your methods. If I were to cite extra-biblical material, in an attempt to invalidate Christian theology, you could very easily just dismiss that and say "That's not God's word". If you have to rely on hadith, written hundreds of years after the death of Muhammad, to discredit Islam and Muhammad, that is not a very good strategy. Go to the Quran, the book Muslims believe is the word of God, not the hadith, which is subject to error and doesn't hold the same weight, as the book they consider infallible and inerrant. Just a suggestion.

When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned. S. 8:43-44 Shakir

More odd arguments against Islam, that don't amount to anything. I see here on the thread, that some of you are relying on David Wood's arguments, but David Wood is a weak source for arguments against Islam. All of his arguments are easily debunked, by those who know Islam and the Bible. Many of the objections Christians fire at Muslims, can be fired back at Christians, as I just demonstrated with the " The Muslim God is a deceiver" canard. These are arguments that can be easily turned on you, so why use them? Find another line of argumentation (you need better ammo).

[Cerebrum123]

Ok, let's do that....






It's obvious that your knowledge of the Hebrew Bible and the nature of the God that revealed it, is quite limited. Yes if course, the omnipotent deity is the best of deceivers and strategists, and no mere mortal could ever outwit or deceive Him.

Calling me ignorant when you trot out the following verses without checking their actual meanings, right.

Jer 20:7 O YHWH, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Deceive is one option for the word used, but persuade/seduce fits the context better.

Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, "Ah, YHWH God! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, You will have peace ; whereas a sword touches the throat ”

Nothing here showing God actually deceived them.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Evidence that deceive is the better translation here rather than entice that is used in others?

1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The "lying spirit" there isn't God, it's another spirit entirely. It's also the same word from the other verses and is often translated entice/seduce.

Even in your Christian "NT" we read:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The people in said quote were already given the truth and refused to believe it. This is an example of God letting someone hold on to their delusions.

According to the Christian "NT", God will send a strong delusion to the wicked, that they may believe a lie and hence be damned as a result. Yet you have the gall to use this argument in an attempt to discredit the Muslim concept of God? That's quite odd to say the least, isn't it? Ironic. The fact is that YHWH does deceive His enemies and even tests those who claim to love Him:

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God tests you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after YHWH your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.



There are several examples in the Hebrew Bible of YHWH, testing and deceiving people, that doesn't in anyway disqualify Him from being our righteous Creator and Lord. HALELUYAH YAHWEH!

Testing, yes, deceiving, no. Every time I look at the verses you bring up it shows God giving the truth to these people first, and then at most allowing them to follow a falsehood. You also bring a verse that explicitly says it is people who have been given the truth who are given over to falsehoods that they want to believe.

If YHWH ALOAH, has determined that a people, due to their wickedness, deserve to be deluded and deceived, then so be it. YHWH can also test his people, to see if they truly love Him and if they fail the test, they can be punished, or even destroyed. It's not you or I who determine what is good and evil, it is YHWH ALOAH, who does. Again, I can give you more examples of YHWH doing the same, so what? YHWH says:


Isa_66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


He chooses the delusions of the wicked and destroys them. He complies, gives them their just desserts, allows them to reap their own evil. He will deceive, the ones who deserve to be deceived and will test those who claim to love him. In his infinite wisdom, he decides what to do with His creatures, not us. So your argument against the Muslim concept of God, is flawed, if its on the bases that their God, deceives or causes others to commit evil.


Exo_14:8 And YHWH hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


YHWH will hardened the heart, of those who in His infinite will, He has determined, should have their hearts hardened, to commit evil. If that's His will, that is His will, and He has His reasons. Does this support the Calvinist view of predestination and divine sovereignty? No. It does however demonstrate that if YHWH, for His own reasons, within a certain context, determines a person will serve a certain function, to accomplish His plan, He will execute His will, however He sees fit. You can debate with YHWH if you want about His decisions, but I simply accept it for what it is. YHWH tells us:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.



Exo 4:11 And YHWH said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I YHWH?






Psa_111:10 The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

It's good that Muhamamd feared Aloah and His ability to deceive and test. When YHWH deceives and tests, the outcome of such deception and testing, can be destruction for those who are deceived and fail His test/s. You and I will be tested, so fear YHWH and walk humbly with your ALOAH/GOD.

Job_23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.


HALELUYAH YAHWEH! KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, HEAVENLY FATHER, WHO'S THRONE IS THE HEAVENS!


Mic 6:7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy ALOHIM?

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy ALOHIM. Christians complicate that, with their mysticism and philosophy. Muslims on the other hand, are more in line with the teaching and spirit of the Hebrew Bible. Islam, one could say and convincingly argue, based on the Biblical evidence, is a more universal form of the ancient patriarchal, Israelite faith. It's a good, healthy, Abrahamic, monotheistic, religion. Christianity is a complex web and amalgamation of Biblical concepts and alien, pagan, Hellenistic philosophy and mysticism/gnosticism. A whole lot of confusion, that has nothing to do with the God of the Hebrew Bible.

You haven't paid much attention if you believe the underlined. The Qu'ran commands Muslims to kill non-believers, it condones pedophilia(Mohammed himself married Aisha when she was 9), and has its own versions of Gnosticism with

In the Hebrew Bible you have these things said about God.

1 Samuel 15:28 Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

I notice you neglect them.

It's revealing how you cite the hadith, rather than the Quran, in your attempt to invalidate Islam. That's like me citing the early church fathers or extra-biblical material, to disprove Christianity. Not a very good tactic. You should adjust your methods. If I were to cite extra-biblical material, in an attempt to invalidate Christian theology, you could very easily just dismiss that and say "That's not God's word". If you have to rely on hadith, written hundreds of years after the death of Muhammad, to discredit Islam and Muhammad, that is not a very good strategy. Go to the Quran, the book Muslims believe is the word of God, not the hadith, which is subject to error and doesn't hold the same weight, as the book they consider infallible and inerrant. Just a suggestion.

The Sahih Hadith are binding on Muslims in orthodox Islam. It's where they get Sharia, it's where they get the Pillars of Islam. The Sahih Hadith are far more important in Islam than you realize. I also quoted the Qu'ran, which you seem to ignore.

More odd arguments against Islam, that don't amount to anything. I see here on the thread, that some of you are relying on David Wood's arguments, but David Wood is a weak source for arguments against Islam. All of his arguments are easily debunked, by those who know Islam and the Bible. Many of the objections Christians fire at Muslims, can be fired back at Christians, as I just demonstrated with the " The Muslim God is a deceiver" canard. These are arguments that can be easily turned on you, so why use them? Find another line of argumentation (you need better ammo).

That is a verse from the Qu'ran showing Allah lying to Mohammed about a battle he just had. YWHW in the same kind of situation did the opposite. He had Gideon bring less people if they were too afraid to fight, rather than trick them into thinking the enemy was weak.

Apparently you didn't actually fully read my argument, or the Bible, and I'm positive at this point you haven't actually read David Wood's arguments, just polemics against him.

The arguments only appear to be "easily turned back" if you don't actually look at the meanings of the verses and words on both sides. It looks like you have been fooled by the Zakir Naik's of the world and have bought into the lies about Islam they spread.

Hebrews 6:18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

2 Samuel 22:31“As for God, his way is perfect: The Lord’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

In all of the example you tried to give of God in the Bible lying, all of them show He gave the truth, and allowed people to believe lies only after trying to reach them, or they don't show lying at all. Maybe before calling someone ignorant you should make sure you've done your own research.

If you want more in depth answers on how the Biblical passages you have been citing aren't about "makr" you can read this article.

[YHWH RULES]

Calling me ignorant when you trot out the following verses without checking their actual meanings, right.



Deceive is one option for the word used, but persuade/seduce fits the context better. Nothing here showing God actually deceived them.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Evidence that deceive is the better translation here rather than entice that is used in others?

A very typical Christian slide of hand and denial of the obvious, for the sake of saving face and furthering a fallacious, silly argument. You're resorting to semantics and sophistry.


Let's examine the context, then the Hebrew word in question..


Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am YHWH.
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived/persuaded/seduced when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived/persuaded/seduced that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Eze 14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
Eze 14:11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith YHWH GOD.



God deceives/persuades/seduces/deludes the false prophet to declare their false oracles, in order to destroy them. Your criticism of the Muslim God, is that he likewise seduces, persuades, deceives and deludes people to commit evil acts or to do something that is detrimental to them, only to turn around and destroy them. Well that's exactly what YHWH does. He's doing just that in the above verses in Ezekiel we just read and in other occasions as well, where he sends a lying spirit to deceive/delude/seduce/persuade false prophets, to prophecy falsely, in order to destroy someone:


1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before YHWH, and said, I will persuade/deceive him.
1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade/deceive him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.


When YHWH places a lying spirit in the mouth of a false prophet, to "persuade" , that persuasion and seduction, is deceptive. Like "duh" (but you already know that, you can't possibly be that dense, "cerebrum123", hence the playing of semantics and sophistry). The Hebrew word there that is translated to "persuade", can just as well be translated "deceive", in light of both the context and the grammatical meaning of the Hebrew word. This is true, not just in the passage in 1st Kings cited above, but the passage quoted earlier in Ezekiel as well. The Hebrew word in question is:


H6601
פּתה
pâthâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be spacious, be open, be wide
1a) (Qal) to be spacious or open or wide
1b) (Hiphil) to make spacious, make open
2) to be simple, entice, deceive, persuade
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to be open-minded, be simple, be naive
2a2) to be enticed, be deceived
2b) (Niphal) to be deceived, be gullible
2c) (Piel)
2c1) to persuade, seduce
2c2) to deceive
2d) (Pual)
2d1) to be persuaded
2d2) to be deceived
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root


In the Christian Strongs dictionary:

H6601
פָּתָה
pâthâh
paw-thaw'
A primitive root; to open, that is, be (causatively make) roomy; usually figuratively (in a mental or moral sense) to be (causatively make) simple or (in a sinister way) delude: - allure, deceive, enlarge, entice, flatter, persuade, silly (one).
Total KJV occurrences: 28

It's the same word used here:

Pro 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.


It's being a false witness against a neighbor, because its without cause, hence the lips are not to be used to deceive or persuade falsely (lie / deceive). Over 99% of everyone who reads the above passages in respect to פָּתָה "pathah", can see the deceptive aspect and definition clearly expressed in these passages, except you of course and perhaps the members of your anti-Islam fan club.

The "lying spirit" there isn't God, it's another spirit entirely. It's also the same word from the other verses and is often translated entice/seduce.

The lying spirit, is commissioned by YHWH to entice/deceive. That's what "lying" spirits do, they lie and in the case of this lying spirit, it was sent by YHWH Himself.

The people in said quote were already given the truth and refused to believe it. This is an example of God letting someone hold on to their delusions.

This is a clear example of YHWH sending a lying spirit to a false prophet, to speak lies. You can twist it however you want, but that's the fact you're conveniently and disingenuously ignoring.

Testing, yes, deceiving, no. Every time I look at the verses you bring up it shows God giving the truth to these people first, and then at most allowing them to follow a falsehood. You also bring a verse that explicitly says it is people who have been given the truth who are given over to falsehoods that they want to believe.

It doesn't say in the NT verses I cited, that YHWH merely allows them to continue believing a lie, but rather that He himself deludes them:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. Couldn't be more explicit than that. God himself is the sender of the delusion.

You haven't paid much attention if you believe the underlined. The Qu'ran commands Muslims to kill non-believers, it condones pedophilia(Mohammed himself married Aisha when she was 9), and has its own versions of Gnosticism with...

That's essentially, all you Christian apologists have against Islam. Just cheap shots, rhetoric, mud slinging, no substantial, theological arguments. It just reveals how doctrinally destitute you are, that the only objections you have against Islam is "The Quran commands Muslims to kill people, uuuuuu, they're so bad bad"...." Muhammad was a pedophile, he married Aisha when she was nine years old". That's all your argument against Islam amounts to.

"Uuuuuu those Muslims, they're so bad. Muhamamd was so...bad. They're so...bad. We're good, they're...bad".

The Bible also commands the Israelites to kill non-believers, idolaters, the worshipers of Baal..etc, big deal? Violence does not disqualify a religion as being divinely revealed or guided. You obviously haven't read the Hebrew Bible much, because it's full of violence and bloodshed, so what? Yeah? We live in a world, where violence exists and YHWH can order his servants, prophets, his people, to kill those He deems deserve to be killed. Violence has never been a disqualifier, for divine truth or revelation. That is an arbitrary Christian ideal imposed upon YHWH and His people, that isn't found in the Hebrew Bible. So if you want to disqualify Islam on the grounds that Muhammad and the first Muslims were warriors, you're in trouble, because the Hebrew Bible is full of divinely ordained bloodshed.

As far as Muhammad being a pedophile. I personally don't believe he was a pedophile, due to the fact he lived 1400 years ago in the Arabian desert, when life expectancy was about 45 years old. Their idea of marriage, when a female can marry and have sex, was different than what we consider normal and correct today in our modern, western culture, with a life expectancy of 78 for males and 81 for females. It wasn't that long ago that in this country, females considered minors, even girls, were marrying men and having sexual relations, like fully grown women. A pedophile is a person who is exclusively or primarily, sexually attracted to prepubescent children. I don't believe that definition fits Muhammad, based on the fact he was married to one wife, Khadija, a woman 15 years older than him, for 25 years, until she died. Most of his wives after the death of Khadija, were with few exceptions, older women, many of them widows. If Muhammad was truly a pedophile, he could've very easily had all or most of his wives be nine year old girls. He could've had a harem full of nine year old girls, but that wasn't the case. I don't buy the Evangelical Christian pedophile polemic/mud sling.

We also see the marriage of girls with adult males in the Hebrew Bible, and condoned by YHWH and His prophet:


Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones (taph = little children / little ones), and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Num 31:18 But all the female children (taph = little children), that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


The Hebrew word “taph” in Hebrew means; children:

H2945
טף
ṭaph
BDB Definition:
1) children, little children, little ones
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2952 (perhaps referring to the tripping gait of children)


Although many of the translations for Numbers 31:18 render the females as being “women”, a closer look at the verse, it refers to “children”, prepubescent girls who have not reached puberty. This is what the Hebrew text reveals. The Hebrew word ‘taf’ (taph) refers to children only, not adult females.

An English and Hebrew Lexicon – Professor Selig Newman:

“CHILD , an INFANT … טַף… an offspring,… get with-……”

A complete Hebrew-English pocket-dictionary to the Old Testament (1905) – Karl Feyerabend:

“טַף (TAF) ., i.p. .., w.s…. coll. CHILDREN, LITTLE ONES.

A Compendious Hebrew-Lexicon – Samuel Pike:

“טַף LITTLE ONES or CHILDREN… mincing in a childish manner, Isai. Iii. 16. –… to drop, or distil… to prophecy, or distil instruction, Micah ii. 6, 11.”


Here are three accurate Christian translations which show that the verse only speaks about ‘female children’:

Jubilee Bible 2000 – “But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

Webster’s Bible – “Translation But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

Living Bible (TLB) – “Only the LITTLE GIRLS may live; you may KEEP THEM FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18


The only ones who are spared are the young virgin girls, whom the Israelites are to divide evenly between the soldiers and the other Israelites ( Numbers 31 v. 18).

Num 31:18 But all the female children (taph = little girls), that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Where is says "keep alive for yourselves", is the Hebrew word " Lachem "/ too devour or consume (for pleasure..etc)

A complete Hebrew and English critical and pronouncing dictionary – Professor William L. Roy:

“לָכֶֽם la-chem. The bread, flesh. P. N. לָכֶֽם la-cham. 1 He ate, devoured; 2 partook of, participated; 3 accepted, received; 4 sustained, preserved; 5 CONSUMED, DEVOURED, swallowed up; contended, warred, as with an enemy. 3. M. s. Pret K. pl. Prob. 4:17. F. Ps. 141: 4. Prov. 23:6. Imp. 33:1. Pres. Part. Ps. 56: 2, pl. ver. 3. Paul. Pl. const. Deut. 32: 4. Inf. Prov. 23: 1. Niph. Num. 21: 26. Jud. 9: 17. Part. Deut. 3: 22. Pl. Jos. 11: 25. Inf. Exod. 17: 10. As a n. m. s. לָכֶֽם Food, bread, sustenace, a feast, or banquet, ANYTHING WITH WHICH WE ARE PLEASED, OR SATISFIED; figuratively, the Messiah, or bread of eternal life; also, the gospel, or salvation. Prov. 6: 17. 23: 6. Gen. 3: 19. Num. 28: 2. Job 6: 7. Ps. 105: 40. John 6: 31. 41: 50. 1 Cor. 10: 3. LXX. …, To feed, sustain, fatten, as with corn. Arab. … Lah-ma. Ro TO DEVOUR, AS FLESH, to make firm, strong. לָכֶֽם le-cham. Fight, content thou. 2. M. s. Imp. K. aff. .. Ye, 2. M. p. .. my. R. –“ (A complete Hebrew and English critical and pronouncing dictionary: on a new and improved plan,containing all the words in the Holy Bible, Both Hebrew and Chaldee, with the vowel points, prefixes and Affixes, as they stand in the original text: Together with their derivation, literal and etymlogical meaning, as it occurs in every part of the Bible and illustrated by numerous citations from the Targums, Talmud and cognate Dialects. [New York: Published by Collins, Keese & Co., 230 Pearl Street, University Press – J. F. Trow, Printer, 1837] by William L. Roy (profesor of oriental Languages in New York), page 394)


Hebrew-English Lexicon:

“לָכֶֽם (fut. לָכֶֽם; inf. לָכֶֽם; imp. לָכֶֽם).
– I. EAT, feast upon, DEVOUR; with … of … consummed of fever.
II. Make, WAGE WAR, with .. Niph. … (Inf. Abs. …; fut. Pl. …). – I. make war; with … against with … for. – for. With … besiege.” (Hebrew-English Lexicon – Containing all the Hebrew And Chaldee words in the Old Testament Scriptures, with their meanings in English [BJT – Maltae terricolis linguae, coelestibus una – London: Samuel Bagster And Sons, Limited, New York – james Pott & Co., 1898], page 135)


A Manual Hebrew And English Lexicon, Including The Biblical Chaldee – Josiah W. Gibbs:

“לָכֶֽם, fut. …, to EAT, CONSUME; to war, fight. – Ni. …, infin. Absol. …, to fight, contend.
… or … m. a contest, siege. Judg. 5:8. (A Manual Hebrew And English Lexicon, Including The Biblical Chaldee – Designed Particularly for Beginners [Second edition revised and enlarged – New Haven: Published And sold By Hezekiah Howe: Also by Jonathan Leavitt, New-York; Crocker & Brewster, Boston; And Glagg & Gould, Androver, 1832] by Josiah W. Gibbs, A. M. (Prof. of Sacred Liter. In the Theol. School in Yale College), page 107 – 108)

An Hebrew And English Lexicon, Without Points, In Which The Hebrew And Chaldee Words Of The Old Testament Are Explained In Their Leading And derived Senses:


Just so readers are aware, Lachem here is a proposition. When we read from the above Lexicons and a commentary, the Hebrew ‘lacham (Lechem) means to “engage”, “eat” or “devour”, this definitely is sexual in the context for Numbers 31:18. It could not mean that the verse commanded Moses’s men to commit cannibalism or go to war with little girls, rather it denotes to “engage”, “eat” and “devour” / draw sensual/sexual pleasure. This is how the earliest of scholars and historians understood the verse to mean.

Shaye J. D. Cohen who is the Littauer Professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations of Harvard University, explains that “ for yourselves” is clear that that Moses’s soldiers could use the females “sexually”:

“Moses enjoins upon the returning warriors to kill their Midianite female captives who have lain with a man, but ‘spare for yourselves every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man’; WE MAY BE SURE THAT ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ MEANS THAT THE WARRIORS MAY ‘USE’ THEIR VIRGIN CAPTIVES SEXUALLY.52 The law in numbers differs from the law in Deuteronomy- perhaps the most significant distinction is that the law in Deuteronomy does not care whether the captive is a virgin or not- but it too permits Israelite warrior to marry (or ‘marry) a foreign woman.” (The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties [University of california Press, Berkeley / Los Angeles / London, The Regents of the University of California, 1999] by Shaye J. D. Cohen [chapter 8] page 255 – 256)

In footnote 52, Professor Shaye J.D. Cohen continues, this time explaining the Hebrew word “lakhem” (lachem) that it is “sexual” and this is how it was the understood by ancient scholars:

“I do not know why the new Jewish version omits ‘for yourselves’; the Hebrew LAKHEM IS UNAMBIGUOUS. That the intent of ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ IS SEXUAL OR MATRIMONIAL IS OBVIOUS; the passage is correctly understood by Rabbi Simeon Yohai in the Sifrei ad loc (177 212H).” (The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties [University of california Press, Berkeley / Los Angeles / London, The Regents of the University of California, 1999] by Shaye J. D. Cohen [chapter 8] page 255 – 256 – [Footnote 52])

The Talmud Of The Land of Israel (also known as ‘Palestinian Talmud’) mentions how the earliest (ancient) of scholars interpreted Numbers 31:18 to mean that the females could be kept as “slave girls”:

“[H] R Simeon says, ‘The requirement is that her [age of] virginity [that is, three years] occur within the sanctity of Israel.’
[I] It was taught [along these same lines] in the name of R. Simeon, ‘A girl who converted at the age of less than three years and one day is valid for marriage into the priesthood.’
[J] What is the scriptural basis for this view? ‘But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, ‘keep alive for yourselves’ (Num. 31:18).
[K] And Phineas [a priest] was with them, [and hence they are valid for marriage into the priesthood, since he was a priest].
[L] How do rabbis interpret ‘KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES?’ To them it says that they SHOULD KEEP THEM ALIVE FOR THEMSELVES AS SLAVE boys and SLAVE GIRLS.
[M] R. Yosa, R. Yosa in the name of R. Yohanan, R. Jonah, R. Hiyya in the name of R. Yohanan: ‘The law is in accord with the position of R. Yose.’
[N] Hanin bar Ba in the name of Rab: ‘The Law is in accord with the opinion of R. Yose.’
[O] But the priests for their part acted in accord with R. Eliezer b. Jacob.” (The Talmud Of The Land of Israel – Qiddushin: A Prelimnary Translations and Explanation [Translated by Jacob Neusner, University of Chicago Press, 1984], volume 26, page 239 – 240 [Qiddushin 4:6. Chap. 4])

This is also mentioned in Tractate Bikkurim – [Chap. 1] Halakhah 5:

“It was stated in the name of Rebbi Simeon: “A girl which became a proselyte being less than three years and one day of age if acceptable for the priesthood since it was said (NUM. 31:18): ‘All the female children unfit for sleeping with a male you shall let live for yourselves,’ and Phineas was with them.’ But the Rabbis [say] YOU SHALL LET LIVE AS SLAVES and SLAVE GIRLS FOR YOURSELVES.” (The Jerusalem Talmud – First Order: Zeraim, Tractates Ma’aser Seni, Hallah, Orlah, And Bikkurim [WDEG – Studia Judaica – Forschungen Zur Wissenschaft Des Judentums, (Editor, Translation and, commentary by Herausgeben Von E. L. Ehrlich) – (BAND XXIII) Walter De Gruyter – Berlin – New York, 2003], page 565)

And:

“R. ELIEZER B. JACOB SAID: A PROSELYTE [etc.}. It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai said: A female proselyte less than three years and a day is ELIBLE to the priesthood, as it is said: But all the women children … keep alive for yourselves; now, was not Phineas among them? But the Rabbis [interpret] ‘KEEP THEM ALIVE FOR YOUR SELVES’ AS bondwomen AND BONDWOMEN. (Talmud – Mas. Kiddushin 78a:45 – page 261 – 262, online source)


In the Footnote section for the above it says that these female “children” were “permitted in marriage”, meaning they could be married off:

“(34) Num. XXXI, 18; it refers to the war captives.
(35) And though he was a priest, these CHILDREN were PERMITTED IN MARRIAGE.” (Talmud – Mas. Kiddushin 78a:45, page 261 – 262 – online source)



A Christian Commentary Upon The Fourth Book Of Moses, Called: Numbers – Symon Lord Bishop Of Ely [Simon Patrick]:

“Ver. 18. But all the women-Children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive.] Being young, there was some hope they might be brought off from idolatry, and become proselytes to the true Religion. FOR YOURSELVES.] To be sold as SLAVES to any other nation; or to be kept as servants; or TAKEN TO BE THEIR WIVES, after such preparation as the Law required, XXI Deut. 16, 17, &c. This was a peculiar case, wherein the middle course was held, between those that were of the seven Nations of Canaan, and those that were not. If they were not of those seven Nations, the Israelites take the women, and little ones unto themselves, XX Deut. 14, 15. If they were, everything that breathed was to be destroyed, v. 16, 17. But here the Midianites being guilty of a very great Crime against the Lord, and against his people, are punished more heavily than other nations; though not so heavily as those of Canaan were to be. For they killed all the women that were not virgins, as well as all the males, both little and great; but spared the rest, together with the cattle, &c. Such an execution was made, in after times, upon one of the cities of Israel, upon an high contempt of Publick authority, in a very great Exigency, XXI Judges 11. …” (A Commentary Upon The Fourth Book Of Moses, Called: Numbers, [London: Printed for Ri. Chitwell at the Rose and Crown in St. Paul’s Church Yard. MDC XCIX] by Symon Lord Bishop Of Ely [Simon Patrick], Page 592 – 593)

A Christian Bible Commentary For English Readers – Charles John Ellicott:

“(18) Keep alive for yourselves.—The Israelites were ALLOWED TO MAKE SLAVES OF THEIR CAPTIVES. Shortly after the capture of these Midianitish women, and, it may be, as arising out of it, the law concerning MARRIAGE WITH CAPTIVES was enacted. (SEE DEUT. XXI. 10-14.)” (A Bible Commentary For English Readers by various writers (Genesis To Numbers), [Cassell And Company, Limited – London, Paris, New York & Melbourne] by Charles John Ellicott, D.D., volume 1, page 563)


A Commentary On The Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal And Homiletical – John Peter Lange:

“The women were certainly the cause of the great sin and fall of Israel, and associated with the Israelitish families they might have become more destructive to the people than before. But how was it with the boys? Knobel reminds us, that they would have risen up later as the avengers of their slain fathers. But they might also, according to their Midianitish nature, have corrupted the Israelitish women. The terrible result of the command was the death penalty to every male, and also to EVERY FEMALE, except those whose virginity could be established, and who might become fused into the popular life of Israel without danger, in the position of SLAVES, handmaids.” (A Commentary On The Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal And Homiletical, With special reference to Ministers and Students – Numbers And Deuteronomy. by John Peter Lange, D. D., [Translated, Enlarged And Edited by Philip Schaff, D. D., (professor of sacred Literature In the Union Theological seminary, New York) – New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1884], volume 3, page 168)

Rev. Dr. Mary Donovan Turner:

“A comprehensive survey of practices in ancient Israel to gender and sexuality is not possible here. Yet, the identification of some of the more problematic aspects will demonstrate the difficulty of ‘transporting’ Old Testament practices into contemporary, healthy practices. In ancient Israel sex was political, something tied to war treaties, and definitely related to power. In the Old Testament, Moses encourages his men to use captured virgins FOR THEIR OWN PLEASURE. After urging his men to kill male captives and female captives who are not virgins, he says, ‘But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves’ (Num. 31:18) This implies that women were commodities, a SPOIL OF WAR, property that could be bartered or won, used, and EXPLOITED after the last battle is fought and the goods are conquered or divided. …” (Parental Guidance Advised: Adult Preaching from the Old Testament [Editors: Alyce M. Mckenzie and Charles L Aaron Jr, Chalice Press – St. Louis, Missouri, 2013], Rev. Dr. Mary Donovan Turner, page 49)

Theological Bible Commentary – Samuel E. Balentine:

“…those ‘who have not known a man by sleeping with him’ (31:18), must be spared. The text does specify what keeping them ‘ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES’ (31:18) means, but we may reasonably assume from other legislation concerning the treatment of women captured in war (cf. DUET. 21:10-14) that sparing their lives opens possibility that they may be incorporated into Israelite community and, upon MARRIAGE TO AN ISRAELITE, be granted full citizenship.” (Theological Bible Commentary: [WJK – Westminster, John Knox Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 2009] (editors: Gail R. O’Day, David L. Petersen), by Samuel E. Balentine page 55)

Joseph Benson’s Commentary of the Old and New Testaments:

“Verse 17
Numbers 31:17. Kill every male among the little ones — Which they were forbidden to do to other people, (DEUTERONOMY 20:14,) except the Canaanites, to whom this people had equalled themselves by their horrid crimes; and therefore it is not strange, nor unjust, that God, the supreme Lord of all men’s lives, who, as he gives them, so may take them away when he pleaseth, did equal them in the punishment. Kill every woman, &c.— Partly for punishment, as having, in general, either prostituted themselves to the Israelites, or some way been accessary in enticing them to idolatry, in which they were so confirmed that there was no hope of reclaiming them; and partly for prevention of the like mischief in future; for had they been saved alive, they would probably have continued to lead the Israelites into the sin of fornication, and have poisoned their minds by their superstitions. THE FEMALE CHILDREN were to be spared, because, being young, there was some hope they might be reformed from idolatry, and become proselytes to the true religion. These they might have as servants, or might MARRY THEM. (Joseph Benson’s Commentary of the Old and New Testaments – Numbers 31:18 – online source)


Study Bible: English Standard Version (ESV):

“NUMBERS – Note on 31:13-18 Moses anger with his officers. Normally in wars outside Canaan, the women were spared (DEUT. 20:14). But as these women were responsible for seducing the Israelites, they had to be killed. In addition, if every male among the little ones were killed, this would preclude the perpetuation of the Midianite people and eliminate the Midianites as a nation forever. GIRLS WITHOUT SEXUAL EXPERIENCE (NUM. 31:18), who were not involved with the sin of Baal-peor, were allowed to live and MARRY ISRAELITE WARRIORS.” (Study Bible: English Standard Version (ESV) [2008 by Crossway Bibles], page 688)

Professor of the Old Testament, Carolyn J. Sharp:

“The implicit suggestion of threatened sexual violence in this story begs for analysis as well. The practice of sexual violation of enemy women for the purpose of long-term destabilization of the enemy is a well-known and amply documented strategy of male warriors in many cultures, from ancient times to today. Scripture testifies to this abhorrent practice in holy-war texts such as NUMBERS 31:18, in which Moses commands the execution of non-virgin Midianite women but allows his army to ‘keep alive for’ themselves MIDIANITE VIRGIN GIRLS, AND DEUTERONOMY 20:14, WHICH INSTRUCTS THAT ENEMY WOMEN MAY BE TAKEN AS BOOTY. …” (Wrestling the Word: The Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Believer, [First edition, WJK – Westminster, John Knox Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 2010] by Carolyn J. Sharp, Page 131)



The female children were employed as non-sexual “slaves”, or “married” to the warriors. There's plenty of evidence showing that, the ancient Hebrew concept of marriage and sexuality, does not resemble or concord with the Christian "puritanical" ideal. Christians like you are off base, not in line with the teachings or values of the Hebrew Bible. Islam and Muslims are in much better agreement with the faith and practices of the ancient Israelites than modern Christians.

In the Hebrew Bible you have these things said about God.

1 Samuel 15:28 Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

I notice you neglect them.

I notice you rip them out of context. All the above verses are saying is that God is trustworthy and keeps His promises. He doesn't act like humans, as far as being untrustworthy and not keeping His word. Notice there that YHWH says he's not a man, something Christians conveniently ignore.

The Sahih Hadith are binding on Muslims in orthodox Islam. It's where they get Sharia, it's where they get the Pillars of Islam. The Sahih Hadith are far more important in Islam than you realize.

There is no "orthodox Islam", that's an arbitrary claim you're advancing to support your reliance on sunni hadith for your "mud slinging" against Islam. The reality is that, the so called "sahih hadith", didn't exist in its present form until over 200 years after the death of Muhammad. The first Muslims were mostly "sola scriptura", relying on the Quran to inform them of their faith, and the direct experience of the first two generations (the sahaba and salafiyun), in questions of jurisprudence and religious praxis. That doesn't amount to or imply a "sahih hadith" , al buhkhari, or sahih Muslim..etc. These collections of traditions, developed later, and many of them are politically motivated fabrications. There are many reasons why Muslims in the centuries after Muhammad's death, wrote "traditions" , attributing them to him, in order to support their kingdoms, their laws and edicts..etc.

You're really shooting yourself on the foot when you use all of these horrible arguments against islam. Are you aware that Christendom was Catholic for over a thousand years before the Protestant reformation? Why do you dismiss many Catholic traditions and the authority of the Roman Catholic magisterium? Christians knew nothing else, than Catholicism, for over a thousand years, before Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli..etc. The Catholics, like the Sunni Muslims, have their sacred traditions, but that doesn't imply that the original Christians or Muslims, created those traditions or even knew they existed. Right? Is that why you're a Sola Scriptura Protestant? You consider the Bible to be the primary and perhaps only true source and authority for Christian doctrine, not the traditions of the Catholic church or the writings of the church fathers. Right? So why do you continue to cite hadith, as if that disproves Islam or Muhammad? Appealing to the majority is a logical fallacy.

I also quoted the Qu'ran, which you seem to ignore.

Sure you quoted the Quran? You didn't prove anything, other than your ignorance.

The Hebrew Bible is quite explicit that YHWH deceives and allows, permits, his servants to do the same. Denying the explicit, clear witness and testimony of the Hebrew Bible on this issue, just makes you look dishonest and desperate.

[siam]

Misquoted----Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

here are other translations of this verse (3:54).....

Sahih International: And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Pickthall: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

Muhammad Sarwar: The unbelievers plotted and God planned, but God is a much better planner;

Arberry: And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers.

The Quran is NOT an English text---its in Arabic. The word "claimed" to be translated as "deciever" in 3:54 is makara (Arabic)/plan, plot, scheme (English)
here is the meaning and other places the word appears in the Quran.....
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

[YHWH RULES]

Misquoted----Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

here are other translations of this verse (3:54).....

Sahih International: And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Pickthall: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

Muhammad Sarwar: The unbelievers plotted and God planned, but God is a much better planner;

Arberry: And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers.

The Quran is NOT an English text---its in Arabic. The word "claimed" to be translated as "deciever" in 3:54 is makara (Arabic)/plan, plot, scheme (English)
here is the meaning and other places the word appears in the Quran.....
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

Every single Evangelical Christian argument against Islam that I have ever taken the time to examine, has proven fallacious.

[Christian3]

To Trucker and Cerebrum123:

It is obvious to me that YHWH RULES has never studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam. It's odd that he would enter a topic about Islam and defend it and Muhammad unless he IS a Muslim.

[Christian3]

Siam, please explain the following sayings of Muhammad:

Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6665, Siddique)

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6666, Siddique)

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of 'Aun b. Utba. (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6667, Siddique)

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6668, Siddique)

Narrated Abu Musa: Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians; then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy. This Hadith is sound and mentioned in Mustadrak of Hakim. (110 Ahadith Qudsi, trans.: Syed Masood-ul-Hasan, pp. 20-21.)

Thank you.

[Christian3]

Misquoted----Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

here are other translations of this verse (3:54).....

Sahih International: And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Pickthall: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

Muhammad Sarwar: The unbelievers plotted and God planned, but God is a much better planner;

Arberry: And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers.

The Quran is NOT an English text---its in Arabic. The word "claimed" to be translated as "deciever" in 3:54 is makara (Arabic)/plan, plot, scheme (English)
here is the meaning and other places the word appears in the Quran.....
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

I understand what you are saying, but I don't really see any significant difference between planned and deceive.

When according to Surah 4:157, the Jews planned to kill Jesus and according to the Qur'an your Allah prevented Jesus' death by only making it appear Jesus was crucified and died, your Allah did deceive not only the Jews but also Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother and all believers in Jesus since then.

[YHWH RULES]

To Trucker and Cerebrum123:

It is obvious to me that YHWH RULES has never studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam. It's odd that he would enter a topic about Islam and defend it and Muhammad unless he IS a Muslim.

The fact that I defend Islam and Muslims from dishonest, hypocritical Christian polemicists who misrepresent Islam, doesn't make me a Muslim. If it's "obvious" to you that I haven't studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam on the bases of me defending Muslims against the likes of you and others of your ilk, then you're unable to think rationally. Present real evidence as to why I am supposedly ignorant of the Hebrew Bible, rather than stating your mere opinion. Back your contentions with some relevant evidence from the Hebrew Bible.

[Christian3]

The fact that I defend Islam and Muslims from dishonest, hypocritical Christian polemicists who misrepresent Islam, doesn't make me a Muslim. If it's "obvious" to you that I haven't studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam on the bases of me defending Muslims against the likes of you and others of your ilk, then you're unable to think rationally. Present real evidence as to why I am supposedly ignorant of the Hebrew Bible, rather than stating your mere opinion. Back your contentions with some relevant evidence from the Hebrew Bible.

You lack facts and good manners. Maybe that is one of the reasons you are so obnoxious and can't discuss faith without being so.

By the way, please get out of my topic thread.

[Bill the Cat]

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

YHWH RULES,

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[Dan Zebiri]

A presumptuous and arrogant generalization lacking any evidence to back it up, as usual. Many of this guy’s polemics are just that - fallacious polemics.

Every single Evangelical Christian argument against Islam that I have ever taken the time to examine, has proven fallacious.

[Dan Zebiri]

I fully agree with you, Christian3. Your points and questions are well grounded and presented. Keep up the good works and unapologetically exposing, questioning and debunking the twisted and baseless misrepresentations of Muslim missionaries here that do vulgur & unwarranted violence to the ancient Biblical texts that predate the Koran and which the Koran shamefully tries to imitate and replace pathetically!

You lack facts and good manners. Maybe that is one of the reasons you are so obnoxious and can't discuss faith without being so.

By the way, please get out of my topic thread.