Islam: Allah has no son

[Christian3]

Christian,

This dawagandist siam, the missionary will not agree to the incarnation, because he/she equates it with deification - which reflects siam's shallow confusion, originating from the koran.

Muslims say that the word of God descended and came down from heaven ("mother of the book") and became a recitation and a book (the koran).

If God allegedly sent his word down to become a book, THEN why can't He send His Word to the earth to become a Human Being?


Is islam and its Allah so restricted and limited that he cannot send his word to the world in any form and shape HE CHOOSES? Are muslims and muhammad prophet of islam greater than the almighty God to dictate HOW God should and should NOT send His Word into the World? That would be an ultimate blasphemy on the part of muslims.

That is not the God of the Bible and Gospel. He is all-powerful and can do as He chooses - and He chose to send His Word into the world AS A MAN - THE PERFECT MAN JESUS CHRIST.

In John 3:13, Jesus Christ declared about Himself that: "NO one has ascended into heaven, except he Who came down - descended- from Heaven - the Son of Man"!

Muslims who cannot wrap their heads around the fact of the Incarnation, is not a problem for the Christians, they wrongly accuse Christians of deification which is a flawed accusation. Christians are NOT GUILTY of the charge of deification just because muslims are forbidden to think about the Incarnation. Because muslims themselves are forced to believe by the koran that IT (the koran) also came down from heaven to become a book.

It has to become a book, you see, it cannot come down to become a man!

Sheer illogical presumption, and flawed theological presumption in the koran and islam...not to mention a hypocritical double-standard.

Back in early 2002 I started studying Islam because even though I was brought up as a Christian I was never a believer (I didn't believe there was a God at all) and I knew next to nothing about what the Bible said, other than the story of Adam and Eve, the Ark, and Jesus being born in a manger.

So, while I studied Islam and the Qur'an I was forced into reading and studying the Bible. I needed to know if the same God was behind both books; I needed to know who Muhammad was; was he a true prophet sent from the one true God?; I needed to know who Jesus is, what He claimed and said and what His disciples said and believed about Him. Did Jesus die and rise from the dead? Did Jesus claim things for Himself that only God could claim for Himself?

Somewhere along the line I became a Christian and I reject Islam, the Qur'an as coming from the one true God and I reject Muhammad as a true prophet.

[siam]

1) The miracle coming true is in your imagination.

2) Do you have a problem with the incarnation?

3) Your Allah never heard of it; otherwise, he would never had said Jesus couldn't be God because He ate food, which proves your Allah is not all-knowing.

4) Jesus could forgive sins, which is something only God could do.

1) It is a possibility that we both imagine things and there is no God. However, our discussion was based on the affirmation by both of us that "One God" exists. So, if you are saying that a person prays and a miracle happens---that this is "fate, coincidence, Nature...etc? Then this means that "fate/coincidence/Nature are outside of God's will/power and occur independently of God---this cannot be true if there is Only One God in existence---because nothing that occurs in the universe can be independent of God/God's will/God's power.

Even human free-will is given by God.

2) Incarnation---What would be the purpose or necessity of incarnation?
God---most compassionate, most merciful--- forgives those who repent. He has done so for the Jews pre-Christianity and does so for Muslims post-Christianity.

3) ?

4) In the Quran, Jesus Christ (pbuh) can breathe into clay birds and have them come alive. As the Quran further explains---whatever Jesus (pbuh) can do is because of God's will.
I can choose to forgive someone who has wronged me. This is because God wills that I have a choice/free-will. If God chose---he/it could take away our free-will.

It is easy to forget that there is only One God...and ascribe powers that should rightfully belong to God---to things other than God. Prophet Moses (pbuh) was able to show miracles---to forget that his powers come from God and to worship him/Prophet Moses (pbuh) as God would not be right if one affirms monotheism.

[siam]

Back in early 2002 I started studying Islam because even though I was brought up as a Christian I was never a believer (I didn't believe there was a God at all) and I knew next to nothing about what the Bible said, other than the story of Adam and Eve, the Ark, and Jesus being born in a manger.

So, while I studied Islam and the Qur'an I was forced into reading and studying the Bible. I needed to know if the same God was behind both books; I needed to know who Muhammad was; was he a true prophet sent from the one true God?; I needed to know who Jesus is, what He claimed and said and what His disciples said and believed about Him. Did Jesus die and rise from the dead? Did Jesus claim things for Himself that only God could claim for Himself?

Somewhere along the line I became a Christian and I reject Islam, the Qur'an as coming from the one true God and I reject Muhammad as a true prophet.

That is fine by me.

However, If discussing monotheism and/or Islam with me is causing anxiety ----might I suggest that you examine your beliefs and study Christianity further?

[siam]

Explain Surah 4:157

Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

This verse is part of the section about Jews and offenses they have committed against God. The verse previous to this speaks of how the Jewish community insulted Mary, mother of Jesus when she brought the baby with her. (In the Quranic narrative, Jesus (pbuh) is a "sign" from God to the Jews) Following this verse are other offenses such as Jews doing usury even though this was forbidden....etc.... The verse that is quoted above, says that Jews claimed that they killed Prophet Jesus (pbuh), messenger of God---thus proving he was a false Prophet and therefore not from God. (as per Deuteronomy) The Quran corrects this claim. Jesus (pbuh) was indeed from God, and a true messenger and a sign sent from God.

[Christian3]

That is fine by me.

However, If discussing monotheism and/or Islam with me is causing anxiety ----might I suggest that you examine your beliefs and study Christianity further?

You insult me, siam.

I studied Islam by discussing the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an with dozens of Muslims from many different countries, read papers written by Muslim scholars, bought the earliest biography of Muhammad, investigated the Hadith, watched debates between Muslims and Christians and kept reading the Qur'an, etc.

My first investigation took place on an Islamic discussion board; I stayed for 3 years, and spent 50+ hours per week, every week for those three years.

[Christian3]

This verse is part of the section about Jews and offenses they have committed against God. The verse previous to this speaks of how the Jewish community insulted Mary, mother of Jesus when she brought the baby with her. (In the Quranic narrative, Jesus (pbuh) is a "sign" from God to the Jews) Following this verse are other offenses such as Jews doing usury even though this was forbidden....etc.... The verse that is quoted above, says that Jews claimed that they killed Prophet Jesus (pbuh), messenger of God---thus proving he was a false Prophet and therefore not from God. (as per Deuteronomy) The Quran corrects this claim. Jesus (pbuh) was indeed from God, and a true messenger and a sign sent from God.

I think Surah 157 is not claiming that Jesus did not die or wasn't crucified. It is merely saying that the Jews didn't do it because the Romans did.

[Cerebrum123]

I think Surah 157 is not claiming that Jesus did not die or wasn't crucified. It is merely saying that the Jews didn't do it because the Romans did.

No, it's pretty clear that it is saying Jesus wasn't crucified, but that Allah made it appear as if Jesus was crucified.

[Christian3]

1) It is a possibility that we both imagine things and there is no God. However, our discussion was based on the affirmation by both of us that "One God" exists. So, if you are saying that a person prays and a miracle happens---that this is "fate, coincidence, Nature...etc? Then this means that "fate/coincidence/Nature are outside of God's will/power and occur independently of God---this cannot be true if there is Only One God in existence---because nothing that occurs in the universe can be independent of God/God's will/God's power.

Even human free-will is given by God.

2) Incarnation---What would be the purpose or necessity of incarnation?
God---most compassionate, most merciful--- forgives those who repent. He has done so for the Jews pre-Christianity and does so for Muslims post-Christianity.

3) ?

4) In the Quran, Jesus Christ (pbuh) can breathe into clay birds and have them come alive. As the Quran further explains---whatever Jesus (pbuh) can do is because of God's will.
I can choose to forgive someone who has wronged me. This is because God wills that I have a choice/free-will. If God chose---he/it could take away our free-will.

It is easy to forget that there is only One God...and ascribe powers that should rightfully belong to God---to things other than God. Prophet Moses (pbuh) was able to show miracles---to forget that his powers come from God and to worship him/Prophet Moses (pbuh) as God would not be right if one affirms monotheism.

Even Pharaoh’s magicians could perform miracles.

The Bible says: For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Jesus making clay birds comes from Christians folklore. Muhammad could not tell the difference between truth and fiction.

Jesus speaking from the cradle came from the same.

God appeared as a man before Jesus in Genesis 18.

[Trucker]

1) It is a possibility that we both imagine things and there is no God. However, our discussion was based on the affirmation by both of us that "One God" exists.

Deliberately or otherwise your comments ignore the historical fact that throughout history mankind has manage to designate any number of figures, things, and so on as God [singular or plural] and/or Goddesses [singular or plural]. Mankind calling something, animate or inanimate, God does not make that something God.

But you knew that!

[Dan Zebiri]

Siam, I will answer your ignorant, naive and rather imbecile "answers' take from below.

First # 2. WHY the incarnation?

Because Jesus Christ Himself declared that was what His mission is all about coming into this world.

Matthew 20:28 - "The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve others, and to GIVE HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM FOR MANY." That was His purpose and official mission statement for His life when He walked the earth. -muslims foolishly and without any proof, claim that one of Jesus purposes here, was to "declare muhamad's coming" - this is pure hogwash, rubbish and B.S polemics. There is NO Proof whatsoever in the Old Testament or the New Testament that Jesus Christ EVER talked about a prophet called 'Ahmed or Muhamed' as erroneously claimed by the koran.

Your parroting of "God can forgive anyone, anytime by his whim and fancy" is typical dawagandist & islamic missionary polemics, used by Deedat, Zakir Naik, and other missionary preachers of islam. And now you...you don't seem to have any original thinking of your own, siam! Just brainwashed parroting of worn-out polemical propoganda by your predecessors who were already rebutted, exposed and debunked.

It really proves absolutely NOTHING siam! You say that God forgives your sins when you beg for forgiveness now....REALLY??

Now, just how sure are you he has forgiven you? If you drop dead right now, are you so sure that you collected enough hassanah / merit points & good works to earn your Allah's forgiveness? No need to tell us lies, now!

Even your false prophet Muhamed begged, implored and requested muslims to pray for him, so that he could 'enter paradise' on judgement day / qiyamat. Having NO ASSURANCE whatsoever his sins were removed... The MAJORITY of muslims will NEVER CLAIM & SAY "ALLAH has forgiven away my sins, RATHER they will only DARE TO SAY "Inshaallah, MAYBE MY SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN by God" that is: "God willing, maybe my sins have been forgiven by God, but I cannot, in fact I can NEVER be sure I am forgiven."

If he - your great Mo himself, the so-called 'seal of the prophets', never knew he was forgiven by Allah for his many sins, how presumptious - and false of you - to claim that 21st century muslims' sins were forgiven already if they just repented and begged Allah?! - And muhamed was the supposed greatest prophet of all, yet even HE himself never dared to claim his sins were forgiven. This is all recorded in the sources of islam and I have read them.

He asked his followers to keep on praying for his sins to be forgiven until the last day. SO muslims have NO GUARANTEE whatsoever their sins will be forgiven by your Allah. IN FACT ALLAH LEADS PEOPLE ASTRAY into Hell fire according to the quran and hadith -WHICH YOU NEVER DARED TO REPLY my Posts and questions earlier - in fact you just RAN AWAY LIKE A COWARD from my valid queries..

The Allah of islam is only just like a big bully, in fact one of his "99 names" is the greatest bully - "al-jabbar al-mutakabbir".

Forgiveness is actually an issue of the Atonement, not the Incarnation.

My answer to your obvious confusion about the Incarnation has already been given here:-

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post724419

But you probably glossed over it without thinking, SHAME!

I gave you an exercise to do here:-

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post724338

Why have you not done it yet?

If you claim that muslims do not worship the words of Allah, or specifically, the Koran (his so-called 'words' / 'kalam'), they certainly do revere it excessively to the point of veneration of an icon - islam's sacred object..the you should have NO PROBLEMS TO DO THE FOLLOWING to show that muslims do not venerate the physical book of the Arabic koran that they hold! :-


If you siam think u don't pray to a rock - the black stone in the aforetime pagan Kaabah, then I challenge you to face away or in the opposite direction from Mecca, each time you perform namaz or shalat (your compulsory prayer rituals).

That shouldn't be a problem to u, since u like and quote about the sufis so much. I have sufi friends who don't bother facing Mecca during the compulsory prayer times. They also don't pray at the 5 set times.

I also challenge u to recite the fatihah (koran chapter 1) or the chapter al-ikhlas (112) in the bathroom or while sitting on the "throne", or, any other ayat or chapter of your koran there.

If, as you claim that the koran is not venerated as something divine or even semi - worshipped, then surely, u won't mind doing the above?

After all, according to u, there is only one Allah "god" for u muslims, right?

Or, just hold your Arabic koran in your left hand and bring it to read in the toilet?

Then only are u qualified to say there is only one god in islam and veneration of the koran is unnecessary and not part of muslim orthopraxy?

Good luck!

1) It is a possibility that we both imagine things and there is no God. However, our discussion was based on the affirmation by both of us that "One God" exists. So, if you are saying that a person prays and a miracle happens---that this is "fate, coincidence, Nature...etc? Then this means that "fate/coincidence/Nature are outside of God's will/power and occur independently of God---this cannot be true if there is Only One God in existence---because nothing that occurs in the universe can be independent of God/God's will/God's power.

Even human free-will is given by God.

2) Incarnation---What would be the purpose or necessity of incarnation?
God---most compassionate, most merciful--- forgives those who repent. He has done so for the Jews pre-Christianity and does so for Muslims post-Christianity.

3) ?

4) In the Quran, Jesus Christ (pbuh) can breathe into clay birds and have them come alive. As the Quran further explains---whatever Jesus (pbuh) can do is because of God's will.
I can choose to forgive someone who has wronged me. This is because God wills that I have a choice/free-will. If God chose---he/it could take away our free-will.

It is easy to forget that there is only One God...and ascribe powers that should rightfully belong to God---to things other than God. Prophet Moses (pbuh) was able to show miracles---to forget that his powers come from God and to worship him/Prophet Moses (pbuh) as God would not be right if one affirms monotheism.

[Dan Zebiri]

Christian,

Very good and valid points in your posts about researching Christianity and Islam as part of your journey to uncover the truth about islam and its founder muhamed, well done!


1) The same God was definitely NOT BEHIND the Bible and the Koran. One is the true and living God, and the other has to be a satanic demon from hell, thats for sure.

2) If muhamed was a true prophet, then the Lord Jesus Christ would surely have mentioned him in the Gospel, but in the ENTIRE BIBLE - the OT and the NT, not even once, was muhammad ever mentioned AT ALL!

In fact it is a facetious polemic of islam to attack Christians and the Gospel with the false claim that we had falsified the Bible and the Gospel because there are no references to islam's notorius founder muhamed they can find in it!

3) More desperate muslims will misrepresent the Bible and do violence to it by making all sorts of nonsensical and ridiculous claims that they can find muhamed in the blble. But only by twisting, disfiguring and lying about the Bible's passages can they try to prop up those false claims with no real basis.

Therefore, it is so wonderful that your faith journey was rewarded with your salvation and new birth in Jesus Christ, per John chapter 3, and that studying about islam and the koran made you faith in the Bible and in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ so much stronger. It was totally right and justified that your conclusion was to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ more strongly and to reject the false claims and unfounded polemics of islam and the koran.

In fact, many devout muslims are finding that out for themselves over the last 30 - 40 years and have quit and abandoned islam totally for the grace of God in Christ, per this great link:

https://www.answeringislam.net/Testimonies/index.html


Many more muslims have left islam to become agnostics and atheists:-

https://exmuslims.org/why-we-fight/?...SAAEgI-XPD_BwE

and -

https://alisina.org/

Back in early 2002 I started studying Islam because even though I was brought up as a Christian I was never a believer (I didn't believe there was a God at all) and I knew next to nothing about what the Bible said, other than the story of Adam and Eve, the Ark, and Jesus being born in a manger.

So, while I studied Islam and the Qur'an I was forced into reading and studying the Bible. I needed to know if the same God was behind both books; I needed to know who Muhammad was; was he a true prophet sent from the one true God?; I needed to know who Jesus is, what He claimed and said and what His disciples said and believed about Him. Did Jesus die and rise from the dead? Did Jesus claim things for Himself that only God could claim for Himself?

Somewhere along the line I became a Christian and I reject Islam, the Qur'an as coming from the one true God and I reject Muhammad as a true prophet.

[siam]

You insult me, siam.

I studied Islam by discussing the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an with dozens of Muslims from many different countries, read papers written by Muslim scholars, bought the earliest biography of Muhammad, investigated the Hadith, watched debates between Muslims and Christians and kept reading the Qur'an, etc.

My first investigation took place on an Islamic discussion board; I stayed for 3 years, and spent 50+ hours per week, every week for those three years.

???
You did not read properly?

I wrote---
However, If discussing monotheism and/or Islam with me is causing anxiety ----might I suggest that you examine your beliefs and study Christianity further?

If this still seems insulting---I apologize.

[siam]

No, it's pretty clear that it is saying Jesus wasn't crucified, but that Allah made it appear as if Jesus was crucified.

correct.

[siam]

Even Pharaoh’s magicians could perform miracles.

The Bible says: For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Jesus making clay birds comes from Christians folklore. Muhammad could not tell the difference between truth and fiction.

Jesus speaking from the cradle came from the same.

God appeared as a man before Jesus in Genesis 18.

???....so?.....
the point is.....?....

[Dan Zebiri]

How cowardly, and hypocritical siam.

Your insinuation to anxiety on the part of Christians is a despicable red herring nothing more.

On the other hand, your anxiety is obvious for all to see when you try to ignore my posts to your abysmally imbecile posts.

Your confused ideas and misrepresentations of the Incarnation and atonement are more proof of that.

The reverence of the koran to the point of high veneration shows muslims practically worship the book as divinity. Nothing you wrote have disproved this fact!

Why don't you hold your precious arab language koran with your left hand, then place it on the floor of the house or road side? I bet you are anxious to never do that because such acts will defile the 'sacredness' of your 'holy book'.

This is veneration equivalent to book-worship or Bibliomancy & bibliolatry and practised by muslims world-wide. Try to deny this? ..??..???

I bet you will run away again as usual siam ...? ..!!

???
You did not read properly?

I wrote---
However, If discussing monotheism and/or Islam with me is causing anxiety ----might I suggest that you examine your beliefs and study Christianity further?

If this still seems insulting---I apologize.