Islam: Allah has no son

[YHWH RULES]

False gods are also called eloah.

I would look at the differences between Islam and Judaism. All religions have something in common.

For instance, Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah; Judaism does not.

When did I ever suggest Islam and Judaism, or Islam and the ancient Hebraic faith of Israel, is exactly the same or the same religion? I never suggested such nonsense. You're now creating a straw man argument. As far as the word Aloah in the Hebrew Bible, among others, like AL, ALOHIM, yes they can be used to identify false gods. However, American Christians will often dismiss the Arabic "Allah" as a false god on the grounds that the Arabic word "Allah" is the name of a false god or idol. That's false. The Arabic word for deity, "Allah" is related to the Hebrew "Aloah". Now if you want to question whether Muslims worship the Aloah of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that's a valid question. You should also ask the same question in respect to your Christian trinity god and man-god. From the point of view of the Hebraic, Abrahamic faith, any rational, honest person can see that the Muslim concept of Aloah, is at least, more in concordance with the original Israelite faith, than the Christian concept of a god by committee of three persons, who is also a "god man" / incarnate god.

If you want to debate whether your Christian concept of YHWH ALOAH, is supported by the Hebrew Bible, bring it on. Lay it all down and let's get into the ring. Present your evidence from the Hebrew Bible, how YHWH is three persons and a god incarnate/man god. The burden of proof is upon you, to establish that doctrine, not upon me to disprove it. Present your case, from the Hebrew Bible and I will examine it.

I would also take a look at the founder of Islam, Muhammad.

Was Muhammad a prophet foretold by the God of Israel? Muslims say he is in the following Scriptures.

Genesis 49:10 Shiloh is Mohammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18, Muslims claim Muhammad is the prophet like Moses.

Deuteronomy 33:2 The claim that Muhammad is prophesied in Deuteronomy 33:2 / With ten thousand saints?

Song of Songs 5:16

Isaiah 21:13-17 Muhammad's flight to Medina?

Isaiah 29:12 A prediction of an illiterate prophet?

Haggai 2:7 A prophecy of Muhammad?

Habakkuk 3:3 The one coming from Mt. Paran

Zechariah 9:9 Riding on a donkey - a prophecy of Umar and the victory of Islam?

Muslims can make whatever claims about Muhammad's prophethood that they want, it makes no difference to me. I follow the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as recorded and taught in the Hebrew Bible. Is it possible that Muhammad is a prophet of YHWH Aloah? Perhaps. He was an extraordinary man, who brought a large portion of the world to the faith of Abraham. He turned idolaters into strict monotheists, who worship the deity of the patriarchs of Israel. He can't be easily dismissed, with a wave of the hand. I follow the covenant of my people and nation and I respect the Muslim faith, due to its strict monotheism (tawheed).

I also see many mistakes in the Qur'an that an all-knowing God would not make.

Same can be said with every religious text, including the NT. I already explained how sacred, inspired texts, don't have to be infallible or inerrant, to guide people to the truth. The NT is full of errors and contradictions, but that I don't reject it on the bases of such textual errors. I reject mostly on the bases of its teachings and theology, which is in clear contradiction to the Hebrew scriptures and faith. THE Quran, be it perfect or not, is in better agreement, theologically, with my Israelite faith and Hebrew Bible, than Christianity.

[Cerebrum123]

False gods are also called eloah.

I would look at the differences between Islam and Judaism. All religions have something in common.

For instance, Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah; Judaism does not.

I would also take a look at the founder of Islam, Muhammad.

Was Muhammad a prophet foretold by the God of Israel? Muslims say he is in the following Scriptures.

Genesis 49:10 Shiloh is Mohammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18, Muslims claim Muhammad is the prophet like Moses.

Deuteronomy 33:2 The claim that Muhammad is prophesied in Deuteronomy 33:2 / With ten thousand saints?

Song of Songs 5:16

Isaiah 21:13-17 Muhammad's flight to Medina?

Isaiah 29:12 A prediction of an illiterate prophet?

Haggai 2:7 A prophecy of Muhammad?

Habakkuk 3:3 The one coming from Mt. Paran

Zechariah 9:9 Riding on a donkey - a prophecy of Umar and the victory of Islam?

I also see many mistakes in the Qur'an that an all-knowing God would not make.

aiming at causing evil

[YHWH RULES]

I think it is better to focus on the nature of Allah vs that of the God of the Old and New Testaments.

Ok, let's do that....

Allah is declared to be the "greatest of deceivers", and early Islamic sources make it clear that early Muslims believed that even they weren't safe from his deception.

Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

"makr" the Arabic word translated as "deceiver" means an act of deception aiming at causing evil.

It's obvious that your knowledge of the Hebrew Bible and the nature of the God that revealed it, is quite limited. Yes if course, the omnipotent deity is the best of deceivers and strategists, and no mere mortal could ever outwit or deceive Him.


Jer 20:7 O YHWH, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.


Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, "Ah, YHWH God! Surely You have utterly deceived


Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.



Even in your Christian "NT" we read:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



According to the Christian "NT", God will send a strong delusion to the wicked, that they may believe a lie and hence be damned as a result. Yet you have the gall to use this argument in an attempt to discredit the Muslim concept of God? That's quite odd to say the least, isn't it? Ironic. The fact is that YHWH does deceive His enemies and even tests those who claim to love Him:


Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God tests you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after YHWH your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.



There are several examples in the Hebrew Bible of YHWH, testing and deceiving people, that doesn't in anyway disqualify Him from being our righteous Creator and Lord. HALELUYAH YAHWEH!

In one verse you literally have Allah command a place to do evil, and then punish them for obeying!

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16 Pickthall

If YHWH ALOAH, has determined that a people, due to their wickedness, deserve to be deluded and deceived, then so be it. YHWH can also test his people, to see if they truly love Him and if they fail the test, they can be punished, or even destroyed. It's not you or I who determine what is good and evil, it is YHWH ALOAH, who does. Again, I can give you more examples of YHWH doing the same, so what? YHWH says:


Isa_66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.



He chooses the delusions of the wicked and destroys them. He complies, gives them their just desserts, allows them to reap their own evil. He will deceive, the ones who deserve to be deceived and will test those who claim to love him. In his infinite wisdom, he decides what to do with His creatures, not us. So your argument against the Muslim concept of God, is flawed, if its on the bases that their God, deceives or causes others to commit evil.


Exo_14:8 And YHWH hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


YHWH will hardened the heart, of those who in His infinite will, He has determined, should have their hearts hardened, to commit evil. If that's His will, that is His will, and He has His reasons. Does this support the Calvinist view of predestination and divine sovereignty? No. It does however demonstrate that if YHWH, for His own reasons, within a certain context, determines a person will serve a certain function, to accomplish His plan, He will execute His will, however He sees fit. You can debate with YHWH if you want about His decisions, but I simply accept it for what it is. YHWH tells us:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.



Exo 4:11 And YHWH said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I YHWH?

Even Mohammed feared Allah's deception and was actually deceived about a battle he had been ordered to fight in.

Psa_111:10 The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

It's good that Muhamamd feared Aloah and His ability to deceive and test. When YHWH deceives and tests, the outcome of such deception and testing, can be destruction for those who are deceived and fail His test/s. You and I will be tested, so fear YHWH and walk humbly with your ALOAH/GOD.

Job_23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.


HALELUYAH YAHWEH! KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, HEAVENLY FATHER, WHO'S THRONE IS THE HEAVENS!


Mic 6:7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy ALOHIM?

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy ALOHIM. Christians complicate that, with their mysticism and philosophy. Muslims on the other hand, are more in line with the teaching and spirit of the Hebrew Bible. Islam, one could say and convincingly argue, based on the Biblical evidence, is a more universal form of the ancient patriarchal, Israelite faith. It's a good, healthy, Abrahamic, monotheistic, religion. Christianity is a complex web and amalgamation of Biblical concepts and alien, pagan, Hellenistic philosophy and mysticism/gnosticism. A whole lot of confusion, that has nothing to do with the God of the Hebrew Bible.

It's revealing how you cite the hadith, rather than the Quran, in your attempt to invalidate Islam. That's like me citing the early church fathers or extra-biblical material, to disprove Christianity. Not a very good tactic. You should adjust your methods. If I were to cite extra-biblical material, in an attempt to invalidate Christian theology, you could very easily just dismiss that and say "That's not God's word". If you have to rely on hadith, written hundreds of years after the death of Muhammad, to discredit Islam and Muhammad, that is not a very good strategy. Go to the Quran, the book Muslims believe is the word of God, not the hadith, which is subject to error and doesn't hold the same weight, as the book they consider infallible and inerrant. Just a suggestion.

When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned. S. 8:43-44 Shakir

More odd arguments against Islam, that don't amount to anything. I see here on the thread, that some of you are relying on David Wood's arguments, but David Wood is a weak source for arguments against Islam. All of his arguments are easily debunked, by those who know Islam and the Bible. Many of the objections Christians fire at Muslims, can be fired back at Christians, as I just demonstrated with the " The Muslim God is a deceiver" canard. These are arguments that can be easily turned on you, so why use them? Find another line of argumentation (you need better ammo).

[Cerebrum123]

Ok, let's do that....






It's obvious that your knowledge of the Hebrew Bible and the nature of the God that revealed it, is quite limited. Yes if course, the omnipotent deity is the best of deceivers and strategists, and no mere mortal could ever outwit or deceive Him.

Calling me ignorant when you trot out the following verses without checking their actual meanings, right.

Jer 20:7 O YHWH, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Deceive is one option for the word used, but persuade/seduce fits the context better.

Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, "Ah, YHWH God! Surely You have utterly deceived

Nothing here showing God actually deceived them.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Evidence that deceive is the better translation here rather than entice that is used in others?

1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The "lying spirit" there isn't God, it's another spirit entirely. It's also the same word from the other verses and is often translated entice/seduce.

Even in your Christian "NT" we read:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The people in said quote were already given the truth and refused to believe it. This is an example of God letting someone hold on to their delusions.

According to the Christian "NT", God will send a strong delusion to the wicked, that they may believe a lie and hence be damned as a result. Yet you have the gall to use this argument in an attempt to discredit the Muslim concept of God? That's quite odd to say the least, isn't it? Ironic. The fact is that YHWH does deceive His enemies and even tests those who claim to love Him:

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God tests you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after YHWH your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.



There are several examples in the Hebrew Bible of YHWH, testing and deceiving people, that doesn't in anyway disqualify Him from being our righteous Creator and Lord. HALELUYAH YAHWEH!

Testing, yes, deceiving, no. Every time I look at the verses you bring up it shows God giving the truth to these people first, and then at most allowing them to follow a falsehood. You also bring a verse that explicitly says it is people who have been given the truth who are given over to falsehoods that they want to believe.

If YHWH ALOAH, has determined that a people, due to their wickedness, deserve to be deluded and deceived, then so be it. YHWH can also test his people, to see if they truly love Him and if they fail the test, they can be punished, or even destroyed. It's not you or I who determine what is good and evil, it is YHWH ALOAH, who does. Again, I can give you more examples of YHWH doing the same, so what? YHWH says:


Isa_66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


He chooses the delusions of the wicked and destroys them. He complies, gives them their just desserts, allows them to reap their own evil. He will deceive, the ones who deserve to be deceived and will test those who claim to love him. In his infinite wisdom, he decides what to do with His creatures, not us. So your argument against the Muslim concept of God, is flawed, if its on the bases that their God, deceives or causes others to commit evil.


Exo_14:8 And YHWH hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


YHWH will hardened the heart, of those who in His infinite will, He has determined, should have their hearts hardened, to commit evil. If that's His will, that is His will, and He has His reasons. Does this support the Calvinist view of predestination and divine sovereignty? No. It does however demonstrate that if YHWH, for His own reasons, within a certain context, determines a person will serve a certain function, to accomplish His plan, He will execute His will, however He sees fit. You can debate with YHWH if you want about His decisions, but I simply accept it for what it is. YHWH tells us:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.



Exo 4:11 And YHWH said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I YHWH?






Psa_111:10 The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

It's good that Muhamamd feared Aloah and His ability to deceive and test. When YHWH deceives and tests, the outcome of such deception and testing, can be destruction for those who are deceived and fail His test/s. You and I will be tested, so fear YHWH and walk humbly with your ALOAH/GOD.

Job_23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.


HALELUYAH YAHWEH! KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, HEAVENLY FATHER, WHO'S THRONE IS THE HEAVENS!


Mic 6:7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy ALOHIM?

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy ALOHIM. Christians complicate that, with their mysticism and philosophy. Muslims on the other hand, are more in line with the teaching and spirit of the Hebrew Bible. Islam, one could say and convincingly argue, based on the Biblical evidence, is a more universal form of the ancient patriarchal, Israelite faith. It's a good, healthy, Abrahamic, monotheistic, religion. Christianity is a complex web and amalgamation of Biblical concepts and alien, pagan, Hellenistic philosophy and mysticism/gnosticism. A whole lot of confusion, that has nothing to do with the God of the Hebrew Bible.

It's revealing how you cite the hadith, rather than the Quran, in your attempt to invalidate Islam. That's like me citing the early church fathers or extra-biblical material, to disprove Christianity. Not a very good tactic. You should adjust your methods. If I were to cite extra-biblical material, in an attempt to invalidate Christian theology, you could very easily just dismiss that and say "That's not God's word". If you have to rely on hadith, written hundreds of years after the death of Muhammad, to discredit Islam and Muhammad, that is not a very good strategy. Go to the Quran, the book Muslims believe is the word of God, not the hadith, which is subject to error and doesn't hold the same weight, as the book they consider infallible and inerrant. Just a suggestion.

The Sahih Hadith are binding on Muslims in orthodox Islam. It's where they get Sharia, it's where they get the Pillars of Islam. The Sahih Hadith are far more important in Islam than you realize. I also quoted the Qu'ran, which you seem to ignore.

More odd arguments against Islam, that don't amount to anything. I see here on the thread, that some of you are relying on David Wood's arguments, but David Wood is a weak source for arguments against Islam. All of his arguments are easily debunked, by those who know Islam and the Bible. Many of the objections Christians fire at Muslims, can be fired back at Christians, as I just demonstrated with the " The Muslim God is a deceiver" canard. These are arguments that can be easily turned on you, so why use them? Find another line of argumentation (you need better ammo).

That is a verse from the Qu'ran showing Allah lying to Mohammed about a battle he just had. YWHW in the same kind of situation did the opposite. He had Gideon bring less people if they were too afraid to fight this article.

[YHWH RULES]

Calling me ignorant when you trot out the following verses without checking their actual meanings, right.



Deceive is one option for the word used, but persuade/seduce fits the context better. Nothing here showing God actually deceived them.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Evidence that deceive is the better translation here rather than entice that is used in others?

A very typical Christian slide of hand and denial of the obvious, for the sake of saving face and furthering a fallacious, silly argument. You're resorting to semantics and sophistry.


Let's examine the context, then the Hebrew word in question..


Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am YHWH.
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived/persuaded/seduced when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived/persuaded/seduced that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Eze 14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
Eze 14:11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith YHWH GOD.



God deceives/persuades/seduces/deludes the false prophet to declare their false oracles, in order to destroy them. Your criticism of the Muslim God, is that he likewise seduces, persuades, deceives and deludes people to commit evil acts or to do something that is detrimental to them, only to turn around and destroy them. Well that's exactly what YHWH does. He's doing just that in the above verses in Ezekiel we just read and in other occasions as well, where he sends a lying spirit to deceive/delude/seduce/persuade false prophets, to prophecy falsely, in order to destroy someone:


1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before YHWH, and said, I will persuade/deceive him.
1Ki 22:22 And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade/deceive him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.


When YHWH places a lying spirit in the mouth of a false prophet, to "persuade" , that persuasion and seduction, is deceptive. Like "duh" (but you already know that, you can't possibly be that dense, "cerebrum123", hence the playing of semantics and sophistry). The Hebrew word there that is translated to "persuade", can just as well be translated "deceive", in light of both the context and the grammatical meaning of the Hebrew word. This is true, not just in the passage in 1st Kings cited above, but the passage quoted earlier in Ezekiel as well. The Hebrew word in question is:


H6601
פּתה
pâthâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be spacious, be open, be wide
1a) (Qal) to be spacious or open or wide
1b) (Hiphil) to make spacious, make open
2) to be simple, entice, deceive, persuade
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to be open-minded, be simple, be naive
2a2) to be enticed, be deceived
2b) (Niphal) to be deceived, be gullible
2c) (Piel)
2c1) to persuade, seduce
2c2) to deceive
2d) (Pual)
2d1) to be persuaded
2d2) to be deceived to be (causatively make) simple or (in a sinister way) delude: - allure, deceive, enlarge, entice, flatter, persuade, silly (one).
Total KJV occurrences: 28

It's the same word used here:

Pro 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.


It's being a false witness against a neighbor, because its without cause, hence the lips are not to be used to deceive or persuade falsely (lie / deceive). Over 99% of everyone who reads the above passages in respect to פָּתָה "pathah", can see the deceptive aspect and definition clearly expressed in these passages, except you of course and perhaps the members of your anti-Islam fan club.

The "lying spirit" there isn't God, it's another spirit entirely. It's also the same word from the other verses and is often translated entice/seduce.

The lying spirit, is commissioned by YHWH to entice/deceive. That's what "lying" spirits do, they lie and in the case of this lying spirit, it was sent by YHWH Himself.

The people in said quote were already given the truth and refused to believe it. This is an example of God letting someone hold on to their delusions.

This is a clear example of YHWH sending a lying spirit to a false prophet, to speak lies. You can twist it however you want, but that's the fact you're conveniently and disingenuously ignoring.

Testing, yes, deceiving, no. Every time I look at the verses you bring up it shows God giving the truth to these people first, and then at most allowing them to follow a falsehood. You also bring a verse that explicitly says it is people who have been given the truth who are given over to falsehoods that they want to believe.

It doesn't say in the NT verses I cited, that YHWH merely allows them to continue believing a lie, but rather that He himself deludes them:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. Couldn't be more explicit than that. God himself is the sender of the delusion.

You haven't paid much attention if you believe the underlined. The Qu'ran commands Muslims to kill non-believers, it condones pedophilia(Mohammed himself married Aisha when she was 9), and has its own versions of Gnosticism with...

That's essentially, all you Christian apologists have against Islam. Just cheap shots, rhetoric, mud slinging, no substantial, theological arguments. It just reveals how doctrinally destitute you are, that the only objections you have against Islam is "The Quran commands Muslims to kill people, uuuuuu, they're so bad bad"...." Muhammad was a pedophile, he married Aisha when she was nine years old". That's all your argument against Islam amounts to.

"Uuuuuu those Muslims, they're so bad. Muhamamd was so...bad. They're so...bad. We're good, they're...bad".

[I]TAKEN TO BE THEIR WIVESI notice you rip them out of context. All the above verses are saying is that God is trustworthy and keeps His promises. He doesn't act like humans, as far as being untrustworthy and not keeping His word. Notice there that YHWH says he's not a man, something Christians conveniently ignore.

The Sahih Hadith are binding on Muslims in orthodox Islam. It's where they get Sharia, it's where they get the Pillars of Islam. The Sahih Hadith are far more important in Islam than you realize.

There is no "orthodox Islam", that's an arbitrary claim you're advancing to support your reliance on sunni hadith for your "mud slinging" against Islam. The reality is that, the so called "sahih hadith", didn't exist in its present form until over 200 years after the death of Muhammad. The first Muslims were mostly "sola scriptura", relying on the Quran to inform them of their faith, and the direct experience of the first two generations (the sahaba and salafiyun), in questions of jurisprudence and religious praxis. That doesn't amount to or imply a "sahih hadith" , al buhkhari, or sahih Muslim..etc. These collections of traditions, developed later, and many of them are politically motivated fabrications. There are many reasons why Muslims in the centuries after Muhammad's death, wrote "traditions" , attributing them to him, in order to support their kingdoms, their laws and edicts..etc.

You're really shooting yourself on the foot when you use all of these horrible arguments against islam. Are you aware that Christendom was Catholic for over a thousand years before the Protestant reformation? Why do you dismiss many Catholic traditions and the authority of the Roman Catholic magisterium? Christians knew nothing else, than Catholicism, for over a thousand years, before Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli..etc. The Catholics, like the Sunni Muslims, have their sacred traditions, but that doesn't imply that the original Christians or Muslims, created those traditions or even knew they existed. Right? Is that why you're a Sola Scriptura Protestant? You consider the Bible to be the primary and perhaps only true source and authority for Christian doctrine, not the traditions of the Catholic church or the writings of the church fathers. Right? So why do you continue to cite hadith, as if that disproves Islam or Muhammad? Appealing to the majority is a logical fallacy.

I also quoted the Qu'ran, which you seem to ignore.

Sure you quoted the Quran? You didn't prove anything, other than your ignorance.

The Hebrew Bible is quite explicit that YHWH deceives and allows, permits, his servants to do the same. Denying the explicit, clear witness and testimony of the Hebrew Bible on this issue, just makes you look dishonest and desperate.

[siam]

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

[YHWH RULES]

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

Every single Evangelical Christian argument against Islam that I have ever taken the time to examine, has proven fallacious.

[Christian3]

To Trucker and Cerebrum123:

It is obvious to me that YHWH RULES has never studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam. It's odd that he would enter a topic about Islam and defend it and Muhammad unless he IS a Muslim.

[Christian3]

[Christian3]

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mkr

I understand what you are saying, but I don't really see any significant difference between planned and deceive.

When according to Surah 4:157, the Jews planned to kill Jesus and according to the Qur'an your Allah prevented Jesus' death by only making it appear Jesus was crucified and died, your Allah did deceive not only the Jews but also Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother and all believers in Jesus since then.

[YHWH RULES]

To Trucker and Cerebrum123:

It is obvious to me that YHWH RULES has never studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam. It's odd that he would enter a topic about Islam and defend it and Muhammad unless he IS a Muslim.

The fact that I defend Islam and Muslims from dishonest, hypocritical Christian polemicists who misrepresent Islam, doesn't make me a Muslim. If it's "obvious" to you that I haven't studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam on the bases of me defending Muslims against the likes of you and others of your ilk, then you're unable to think rationally. Present real evidence as to why I am supposedly ignorant of the Hebrew Bible, rather than stating your mere opinion. Back your contentions with some relevant evidence from the Hebrew Bible.

[Christian3]

The fact that I defend Islam and Muslims from dishonest, hypocritical Christian polemicists who misrepresent Islam, doesn't make me a Muslim. If it's "obvious" to you that I haven't studied Judaism, Christianity or Islam on the bases of me defending Muslims against the likes of you and others of your ilk, then you're unable to think rationally. Present real evidence as to why I am supposedly ignorant of the Hebrew Bible, rather than stating your mere opinion. Back your contentions with some relevant evidence from the Hebrew Bible.

You lack facts and good manners. Maybe that is one of the reasons you are so obnoxious and can't discuss faith without being so.

By the way, please get out of my topic thread.

[Bill the Cat]

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

YHWH RULES,

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[Dan Zebiri]

Every single Evangelical Christian argument against Islam that I have ever taken the time to examine, has proven fallacious.

[Dan Zebiri]

I fully agree with you, Christian3. Your points and questions are well grounded and presented. Keep up the good works and unapologetically exposing, questioning and debunking the twisted and baseless misrepresentations of Muslim missionaries here that do vulgur & unwarranted violence to the ancient Biblical texts that predate the Koran and which the Koran shamefully tries to imitate and replace pathetically!

You lack facts and good manners. Maybe that is one of the reasons you are so obnoxious and can't discuss faith without being so.

By the way, please get out of my topic thread.