Islam: Allah has no son

[Christian3]

Yes I did....

This part of the discussion was in regards to the subject of One God.
It is a general observation (and not anything specific to you)...that if we need validation for "self" (Identity, beliefs, Group) by requiring an opposing diametric---then this identity/belief is too shallow to stand on its own terms. So...it needs to deepen.

Apologetics is fun and can increase knowledge ...but...it has its limits.

There is only one God, siam. Christians believe in only one God, siam.

Don't make the same mistake your Allah did.

[Christian3]

Made to appear---The Quran does not specify what this entails---there are several speculations among Muslims---the most popular is that another (possibly another criminal?) was substituted.

However, there are some Christians who say that Jesus was "Unrecognizable"---
ttps://folcc.org/why-jesus-face-was-marred-beyond-human-likeness-isaiah-5214

Then there are accounts of how people close to Jesus did not recognize him?
Mary at the Tomb? (John 20 14:18)
Jesus meets disciples? (John 21:4 and Luke 24 15-16) ..."their eyes were kept from recognizing him." (Luke 24: 15-16)
and...
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...ter-his-resurr
"The question remains. Why did those who knew Jesus not recognize him? It seems that something must have been different about him. Mark 16:12 records that Jesus "appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country." This is a possible explanation, that Jesus changed forms..."

https://biblehub.com/luke/24-16.htm

So...even Christians believe that God can change appearances?...

If you had read the New Testament with any amount of understanding you would know why "their eyes were kept from recognizing him." and why Mary couldn't recognize Jesus at first. But she did recognize Jesus' voice didn't she? Jesus' sheep know the sound of His voice.

Mark 16:12 is after Jesus rose from the dead, siam, not while Jesus was on the cross.

[siam]

If you had read the New Testament with any amount of understanding you would know why "their eyes were kept from recognizing him." and why Mary couldn't recognize Jesus at first. But she did recognize Jesus' voice didn't she? Jesus' sheep know the sound of His voice.

Mark 16:12 is after Jesus rose from the dead, siam, not while Jesus was on the cross.

I do NOT understand Christianity and have not read the NT (except in bits and pieces)

Though Jesus was "not recognized" in instances after the crucifixion, there are other passages also...?....
Apparently---this aspect of Jesus as shape-shifting has a name! its called polymorphism.....?...and though it mostly appears in apocrypha, early Christians believed it...?...
This article has some details....
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.c...ian-tradition/

...Other Christian documents with polymorphic christology include the Shepherd of Hermas, the Physiologus, the Apocalypse of Elijah, the Apocryphon of John, the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, the Acts of Paul, the Acts of Andrew, the Acts of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Philip, the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies, the Revelation of the Magi, the Armenian Infancy Gospel, and Pseudo-Cyril’s On the Life and the Passion of Christ. These writings encompass a wide range of dates (from possibly the first century to the ninth century), locations, and Christian sects. We read of a Jesus who could alter not only his facial appearance, but his stature, his age, and his corporeality — and could do differently for different observers at the same time.
........

Church father Origen concurred with the polymorphic traits of Jesus described in the apocryphal Acts above. In Contra Celsum (248 CE), he wrote:

Although Jesus was one, he had several aspects; and to those who saw him he did not appear alike to all. Â… Moreover, that his appearance was not just the same to those who saw him, but varied according to their individual capacity, will be clear to people who carefully consider why, when about to be transfigured on the high mountain, he did not take all his disciples, but only Peter, James, and John. For they alone had the capacity to see his glory at that time, and were able also to perceive Moses and Elias when they appeared in glory, and to hear them conversing together, and the voice from heaven out of the cloud. (Cels. 2.64. Translation by Henry Chadwick, 1965.)⁴

In the same passage, Origen marshals the arrest story as further evidence of JesusÂ’ changing appearance:

And it is clear that he did not always appear the same from the remark of Judas when about to betray him. For he said to the crowd that came with him, as though they did not know him, ‘Whomsoever I kiss, it is he’.

.....

In Luke 4:16-30, JesusÂ’ speech in the synagogue at Nazara so angers all his listeners, that they attempt to throw him off a nearby cliff. Jesus makes a miraculous escape, the nature of which is left vague.

They got up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff. But he passed through the midst of them and went on his way. (Luke 4:29-30)

[Trucker]

I do NOT understand Christianity and have not read the NT (except in bits and pieces)

And it shows!!! May I suggest that you make a sincere effort to read the New Testament. Please start out by reading [actually "STUDYING] the Book of John. Then read Romans. Go back and read John again and then Romans again All the time PRAYING FOR GOD TO GRANT YOU UNDERSTANDING. Don't pray some prepared form prayer ... just let your yourself speak to God as you would speak to a friend, be sincere, and open your heart to Him. Then expand your Bible studies from there. You have obviously spent much time studying the alleged faults with Christianity along with how wonderful Muhammad was along with his "Islam".so why not spend

Jesus IS the answer, sir. The differences between Jesus' teaching, His life, and so on as compared to Muhammad is the differences between Truth [TRUE TRUTH] vs lies, black and white, good and evil, life and death, and so on.

[Christian3]

I do NOT understand Christianity and have not read the NT (except in bits and pieces)

Though Jesus was "not recognized" in instances after the crucifixion, there are other passages also...?....
Apparently---this aspect of Jesus as shape-shifting has a name! its called polymorphism.....?...and though it mostly appears in apocrypha, early Christians believed it...?...
This article has some details....
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.c...ian-tradition/

...Other Christian documents with polymorphic christology include the Shepherd of Hermas, the Physiologus, the Apocalypse of Elijah, the Apocryphon of John, the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, the Acts of Paul, the Acts of Andrew, the Acts of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Philip, the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies, the Revelation of the Magi, the Armenian Infancy Gospel, and Pseudo-Cyril’s On the Life and the Passion of Christ. These writings encompass a wide range of dates (from possibly the first century to the ninth century), locations, and Christian sects. We read of a Jesus who could alter not only his facial appearance, but his stature, his age, and his corporeality — and could do differently for different observers at the same time.
........

Church father Origen concurred with the polymorphic traits of Jesus described in the apocryphal Acts above. In Contra Celsum (248 CE), he wrote:

Although Jesus was one, he had several aspects; and to those who saw him he did not appear alike to all. Â… Moreover, that his appearance was not just the same to those who saw him, but varied according to their individual capacity, will be clear to people who carefully consider why, when about to be transfigured on the high mountain, he did not take all his disciples, but only Peter, James, and John. For they alone had the capacity to see his glory at that time, and were able also to perceive Moses and Elias when they appeared in glory, and to hear them conversing together, and the voice from heaven out of the cloud. (Cels. 2.64. Translation by Henry Chadwick, 1965.)⁴

In the same passage, Origen marshals the arrest story as further evidence of JesusÂ’ changing appearance:

And it is clear that he did not always appear the same from the remark of Judas when about to betray him. For he said to the crowd that came with him, as though they did not know him, ‘Whomsoever I kiss, it is he’.

.....

In Luke 4:16-30, JesusÂ’ speech in the synagogue at Nazara so angers all his listeners, that they attempt to throw him off a nearby cliff. Jesus makes a miraculous escape, the nature of which is left vague.

They got up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff. But he passed through the midst of them and went on his way. (Luke 4:29-30)

If you haven't read and studied the New Testament then it is no wonder you don't understand it.

Jesus made that escape because it was not yet His time.

If Jesus was supposedly never crucified, or died, or buried, we have to ask: the question: Who was the crucified One?

The Crucifixion: A matter of the chain-of-custody

A question came regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus to prove:

(1) that anyone saw Jesus dead, and
(2) that anyone removed the dead body of Jesus from the cross, and
(3) that anyone put His dead body in a tomb.

These three questions involve the chain-of-custody of Jesus and his body. They seem to best be broken down into the following five parts:

(A) Jesus was identified as being arrested, tortured, and hung on cross.
(B) Jesus was identified as remaining on the cross till death.
(C) proof of the death of Jesus on the cross.
(D) proof of the removal of the same dead body from the cross.
(E) proof of the placement of that same dead body in a tomb.

This study is from the recording in the Bible by Matthew Levi, the son of Alphaeus, a servant of God and a companion and disciple of Jesus.

The Roman government, the Jewish rulers and the disciples of Jesus were confirming witnesses to these events. If the Jewish people were deceived into thinking that they had killed Jesus, that would have still made it necessary to also deceive the Roman government and even the very followers of Jesus, including his mother and closest friends and disciples to force them also to believe a complete falsehood.

(A) Jesus was identified as being arrested, tortured, and hung on cross

The "chain-of-custody" begins with the identification of Jesus by all 12 disciples (apostles) during the eating of the Last Supper at the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the night before the start of the full Passover commemoration. Judas left them (Mt 26:17-20).
Then the group proceeded under a full moon with plenty of moonlight (the 14th day of the month of Nisan) (Exodus 12:18) from the place of the Last Supper east across the Brook Kidron and to the Garden of Gethsemane at the Mount of Olives (Mt 26:30 & 36).
Judas Iscariot came and identified Jesus for the soldiers. Jesus also identified himself. Jesus healed the ear of the servant of the High Priest (Mt 26:47-56). Later Judas confirmed that he had betrayed an innocent man (Mt 27:3-8). Also, the temple chief priests confirm that the money given to Judas by them was "blood money" (Mt 27:6).

Jesus went with the temple soldiers, in their custody, to the house of Caiaphas many leaders there including the whole great Sanhedrin (the 70 ruling men in the Council). Jesus confirmed that he is the Messiah and the Son of the God. Because of this statement of his, they said Jesus had committed blasphemy and was deserving of death (Mt 26:57-68).

Jesus was transferred into the Roman custody of governor Pontius Pilate in the morning (Mt 27:1-2).

The wife of Pilate stated that she had a dream in the previous night hours that Pilate should have nothing to do with that "righteous man" (Mt 27:19).

The Roman governor, Pilate, delivered Jesus into the custody of his own professional Roman soldiers (Mt 27:26).

The Roman soldiers beat Jesus and put a crown of thorns on his head, thus specifically marking the top of his head and his body (Mt 27:27-30). These wounds would help identify the body of Jesus all the way to the cross, on the cross, and in post-resurrection appearances.

Jesus remained in the custody of Roman soldiers and was taken to the place of crucifixion (Mt 27:31-33).

Matthew, who was one of the 12 disciples, records that the Roman soldiers crucified Jesus, which means putting a live person on a cross (Mt 27:35).

(B) Jesus was identified as remaining on the cross till death

Jesus remained on the cross under guard by the Roman centurion (Mt 27:54) and soldiers. Some sat down to watch him die (Mt 27:36-37).

While hanging on the cross he was identified by:

1. The Roman centurion (officer over about 100 men) (Mt 27:54).
2. The Roman soldiers watching and who knew the wounds he had previously suffered (Mt 27:35-36).
3. The passersby who had heard him preach (Mt 27:39-40).
4. The chief priests (Mt 27:41).
5. The scribes (Mt 27:41).
6. The elders (Mt 27:41).
7. The two robbers who were also being executed (Mt 27:44).
8. The many women who had seen Jesus before were looking on (Mt 27:55-56).
9. His mother, Mary (John 19:26).
10. John, His disciple (John 19:26)

(C) proof of the death of Jesus on the cross

Matthew, a disciple, records that Jesus gave up his spirit, died (Mt 27:50).

Matthew refers to the resurrection of Jesus in a similar way to other dead people, saints, who were raised bodily from their tombs (Mt 27:52-53).

The Roman centurion (Mt 27:54) who was in charge of keeping guard over Jesus, refers to Jesus' life in the past tense after the death (Mt 27:54).

The dead body of Jesus was later ordered by the Roman governor to be given to Joseph who wrapped it in a clean linen cloth and who laid that body of Jesus in his own tomb (Mt 27:59-60).

The chief priests and Pharisees confirmed to the Roman governor that Jesus was dead (Mt 27:63-64).

Also the chief priests and Pharisees confirmed to the Roman governor that Jesus' body was in a grave (Mt 27:64).

Pilate, the Roman governor appointed a guard for the grave of the dead body of Jesus (Mt 27:65-66).

An angel of the Lord from Heaven confirmed that Jesus had been crucified, and had been dead (Mt 28:2-7). The women to whom this message was given told it to Matthew and the other disciples (Mt 28:7-10).

(D) proof of the removal of the same dead body of Jesus from the cross

The Roman soldiers then had custody of the dead body of Jesus (Mt 27:54).

Notice that not anyone could remove the dead body Jesus, the executed prisoner, from the custody of the Romans. Permission had to be obtained from the proper authority who had ordered the execution. In this case it was the Roman governor, Pilate (Mt 27:58).

A Jewish man, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple and who would recognize Jesus, asked the Roman governor, Pilate, that he, Joseph, be allowed to receive the dead body of Jesus (Mt 27:57-58).

Pilate gave the order that the dead body of Jesus be given to Joseph (Mt 27:58).

Joseph took away the dead body of Jesus which had been ordered to be given to him by the governor, Pilate, and which was identified to him as such by the soldiers who guarded the body and also from his own identification of Jesus, because he was a disciple (Mt 27:57 & 59).

The chief priests, elders and the soldiers confirmed that the body in the tomb was that of Jesus. It was the same dead body of Jesus that the governor, Pilate, had ordered the soldiers to guard (Mt 28:11-15).

(E) proof of the placement of that same dead body of Jesus in a tomb

Pilate gave the order that the dead body of Jesus be given to Joseph (Mt 27:58). There is no evidence that any other body was given to him.

Joseph took custody of the dead body of Jesus which had been ordered to be given to him by the governor Pilate and which was identified to him as such by the soldiers who guarded the dead body and which Joseph must have been able to identify himself, because he was a disciple of Jesus (Mt 27:59).

Joseph kept custody of the body of Jesus and wrapped the body of Jesus in a clean linen cloth for burial (Mt 27:59).

Joseph laid the wrapped dead body of Jesus in his own new tomb (Mt 27:60).

Mary Magdalene and the other Mary who had been at the crucifixion came to that very grave (Mt 27:56 and 28:1).

An angel of the Lord from Heaven confirmed that Jesus had been buried at that very grave (Mt 28:1-6). The women to whom this message was given told it to Matthew and the other disciples (Mt 28:7-10).

[Christian3]

Yup, the Qur'an basically refutes itself.

And the Allah of the Qur'an makes a liar and a false prophet out of Jesus because Jesus said He would die and rise from the dead in many verses.

[Dan Zebiri]

This is only more pure rubbish and nonsense, Siam.

What "distracted with the death of Jesus" are you speculating about below? Was the crucifixion of Jesus a distraction TO HIMSELF? Can you even prove your misrepresentation of the synoptic Gospel records? That this was a so-called "distraction"..

Yes, now everyone can see that you read the NT - New Testament ONLY in bits and pieces - and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, like you now abysmally manifest..No this is NOT a personal attack on you, siam, but to show how you misuse your selective NT readings, and shallow misinterpretations of them to make false, ignorant and STUPID accusations - like your famous parroting of "dividing God"

Now, WAS the Crucifixion of Christ a distraction TO HIMSELF?

Actually, Christ already mentioned and foretold His death to His disciples MANY TIMES Himself-

21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s

Matthew 16: 21-23

It was PETER who tried to distract Jesus from going to his death over 2,000 years ago - Jesus called him SATAN.

Other NT passages confirm that Jesus set His face like a flint to go to Jerusalem to meet his accusers and face the judgement of death BECAUSE HE CLAIMED TO BE DIVINE AND GOD in public - Luke 9:51-53

Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.

- John 10:33-33

Nobody made Jesus into God, He Himself claimed it and said so. He was sentenced to death because of it. So WHO was dividing or multiplying GOD?

Your accusation of Christians dividing and multiplying God 'at the Cross' has no basis and is itself a red herring distraction.

Its an interesting point----
However, The followers of Masih Jesus, son of Mary, had a choice that day.
They could follow the One God and the teachings/message of Jesus (the Jew) to honor only the One God, (Shema) or get distracted with the death of Jesus and end up dividing God.
It was their choice and they live with the consequences.

[siam]

If you haven't read and studied the New Testament then it is no wonder you don't understand it.

Jesus made that escape because it was not yet His time.

If Jesus was supposedly never crucified, or died, or buried, we have to ask: the question: Who was the crucified One?

Why do we have to ask that question?
In Islam---God forgives whomever he chooses to forgive---he has done so before Christianity ever came up with its convoluted and confusing ideas---and will continue to do so for as long as God chooses.
It does not matter who/what "died"---as it has no bearing on God's will/God's ability to forgive whomever he chooses.

[siam]

And the Allah of the Qur'an makes a liar and a false prophet out of Jesus because Jesus said He would die and rise from the dead in many verses.

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought the "truth"---He brought the message of the "One God"---there is no other God except the One God. The same message brought by all of God's prophets/messengers including Prophet Abraham.

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that there is no God but the One God.

[Dan Zebiri]

Well, for Christians it matters who died because only the sinless can pay for the sins of the sinful. And Jesus Christ committed no sin in the Gospel records and this is agreed by Islam. This is totally unconfusing.

And in islam it is not as simplistic like you pretend to paint for us. Your God ‘forgives’ only those he predestined for heaven. He does not admit to heaven those souls that he made for Hell/Jahannam. As shown in the Koran and the hadith Qudsi. Because of this the God of islam is tyrannical & cruel and proves that islam is not only confusing and convulated but also extremely tyrannical. Look up https://ahadith.co.uk/110ahadithqudsi.php , number 22, etc.

That’s why your ‘prophet’ begged his followers to pray for him to be forgiven and be admitted into paradise, he was never sure his own salvation till the day he died. There is a strong chance for even Muhamed to be thrown into hell – no muslim is sure of their God’s forgiveness.

This question must be asked because the koran twists the facts in sura 4/157. Proving that it is not the truth it claims to be.

Why do we have to ask that question?
In Islam---God forgives whomever he chooses to forgive---he has done so before Christianity ever came up with its convoluted and confusing ideas---and will continue to do so for as long as God chooses.
It does not matter who/what "died"---as it has no bearing on God's will/God's ability to forgive whomever he chooses.

[Dan Zebiri]

Your illogical, shallow mind and extremely limited & twisted knowledge shows itself again, siam. You presumptuously assume to teach Christians the Gospel from your Koran ? that came 700 years AFTER the Gospel, and is truer than the original Gospel?!? You must think that we are as stupid as you are, siam. Remember that fake counterfeit money always IMITATES the original one that came earlier!

According to the Gospel, which precedes the koran by 700 years, and which the koran tries hard to counterfeit the Gospel, Jesus didn’t only come to bring truth, Christ Himself IS the truth, per John 14:6.

He did not only proclaim about the one true God, He said that he Himself is that God -

57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him.

John 8:57-59 – Before Abraham existed, I - Jesus Christ, was already there - or I AM.

John 10: 30 - Jesus said: I and the Father are ONE.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 10: 30-33 – “He who has seen Me has already seen the (God the) Father. How then can you say, ‘Show us the Father’”?

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

Matthew 11:27 No one knows God except His Son Jesus, and only the Son can give the knowledge of the Father to who ever the Son wishes.

John 10:28 – I – Jesus, give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought the "truth"---He brought the message of the "One God"---there is no other God except the One God. The same message brought by all of God's prophets/messengers including Prophet Abraham.

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that there is no God but the One God.

[Christian3]

Why do we have to ask that question?
In Islam---God forgives whomever he chooses to forgive---he has done so before Christianity ever came up with its convoluted and confusing ideas---and will continue to do so for as long as God chooses.
It does not matter who/what "died"---as it has no bearing on God's will/God's ability to forgive whomever he chooses.

You are forgetting that God is a Just God.

[Christian3]

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought the "truth"---He brought the message of the "One God"---there is no other God except the One God. The same message brought by all of God's prophets/messengers including Prophet Abraham.

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that there is no God but the One God.

You are trying to avoid my point.

[Trucker]

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought the "truth"---

Precisely! But according to the sacralized Islamic writings Muhammad was more than willing to lie if and when it suited his needs and told his followers to lie [Do you need the quotes?]! So why do you choose to follow Muhammad instead of Jesus who demanded honesty from those who would desire to follow Him and His teachings????

He brought the message of the "One God"---there is no other God except the One God. The God who is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever!! The same message brought by all of God's prophets/messengers including Prophet Abraham.

The One God Jesus revealed and taught about was the same God [the ONLY real God] as revealed in and by the Scriptures, sir. Certainly not the Allah [that's "the god or God] in Arabic] as revealed and defined by Muhammad!!! !

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that there is no God but the One God.

Be honest with yourself, sir. You follow the subjectively selected and often corrupted teaching of Jesus AS REVEALED BY MUHAMMAD ... NOT THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AS REVEALED IN AND BY THE SCRIPTURES!!!

[Christian3]

According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought the "truth"---He brought the message of the "One God"---there is no other God except the One God. The same message brought by all of God's prophets/messengers including Prophet Abraham.

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that there is no God but the One God.

There is only one God, siam, and Jesus taught that one God was one God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And Jesus also taught many other things that you apparently don't know about.