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Islam: Allah has no son

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  • #31
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    interesting.

    So Christians worship the "One God"
    Muslims worship the "One God"....

    If only "One God" exists...could it be assumed that no other divine power exists except the "One God"?
    There is only one God; Christians worship that one God, but I'm not sure about Muslims because the one true God is all-knowing and Allah isn't.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      You have successfully pointed out the necessity of why tawheed is an essential and primary doctrine.----Without it, humanity could so easily fall into the practice of dividing God!!! It is why the Jews have the Shema and it must be why Christians determinedly insist that they too are monotheists.....?......
      The Shema means there is only one God; the Shema does not say anything about the nature of that oneness.

      Christians ARE monotheists!!!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        The Shema means there is only one God; the Shema does not say anything about the nature of that oneness.

        Christians ARE monotheists!!!
        Christians have their interpretation of the OT so, within a Christian interpretation...the Shema may mean what you say....
        The Jewish concept is here:-
        https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-nature-of-g-d

        G-d is One
        One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." This simple statement encompasses several different ideas:

        1.There is only one G-d. No other being participated in the work of creation.
        2.G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.
        3.G-d is the only being to whom we should offer praise. The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

        The Jewish and Muslim understanding of One God is similar. Christians can decide for themselves if their concept of God is similar to the Judeo-Muslim one or not....

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          There is only one God; Christians worship that one God, but I'm not sure about Muslims because the one true God is all-knowing and Allah isn't.
          There is a difference between affirming the existence of only "One God" and conceptualization of the nature of "One God".
          The first is a matter of the heart, the other of the intellect.

          Comment


          • #35
            Christians believe in ONLY ONE God - not three like the koran falsely misrepresents, and then falsely maligns and accuses Christians in QS 5/116, 72/3 etc.

            On the other hand, Sunni (orthodox) Muslims believe in at least Two divinities or divine entities and this is espoused and expounded in the Koran as in Q 13/39, 85/22 and many more verses.

            The "mother of the book(s)" or ummul kitab (13/39) which is located in the so-called "guarded tablets" or lawh mahfooz / lauh mahfuz (85/22) are enshrined as islamic theological dogmas and "facts" by the ahli sunnah wa'l jamaah ('the congregation of the orthodox'). They are supposed to be eternal and uncreated - which as you already admitted, are the inexorable qualities of Allah/God himself.

            Furthermore, the "guarded tablets" that contain the source of your koran, are existentially located as separate entities apart from God/Allah as "either to the right side of the throne where Allah sits, OR below his throne, just above the seventh heaven."!

            This is exegeted and enjoined by sahih interpreters and muffassirs (islamic exegetes) and therefore are orthodox doctrine of islam ie. sunnah. Among them are an-Nasafi, Ibn Khaldun and Ghazali.

            The bottom line is sunni islam adds to the singularity of Allah and creates a second eternal and uncreated divine entity - actually another divinity in the koran and the "ummul kitab" - the so-called Mother of the book Ummul - means 'mother of' and kitab means 'book/s'.

            Harping on muslims not 'worshipping' this second uncreated divine entity does not reduce its contradiction and denial of the 'absolute oneness of the divine' - because in Sunni Islam NOW, there is no such thing ANY MORE as a singular or "pure" monotheism per se, but there are TWO eternal And uncreated entities in islam. There are TWO 'items' that are eternal and everlasting and were never created in orthodox islam - Allah and his Mother of the Book... THAT IS NOT MONOTHEISM ANY LONGER, Siam.

            Never mind that you wish not to worship that second item and entity, but that does not negate the fact that there is more than purely One eternal and uncreated Being in sunni islam's Godhead. That is why the shia theology and doctrines never accepted the uncreated Koran and the uncreated Word of God. This means that there was a time when Allah/God never had a word that co-existed with him, in other words, Allah was dumb and mute!

            Either way, both islams have many inconsistencies and problems that cannot be resolved - BOTH for the orthodox, sunni muslims as well as for the Shiah muslims theologies - who want to guard the so-called "purity of islamic monotheism". They are both starkly contradictory and unreconcilable, theologically AND intellectually.

            Conclusion: There is therefore no real "pure monotheism" in orthodox islam, not by a long shot!




















            Originally posted by siam View Post
            You have successfully pointed out the necessity of why tawheed is an essential and primary doctrine.----Without it, humanity could so easily fall into the practice of dividing God!!! It is why the Jews have the Shema and it must be why Christians determinedly insist that they too are monotheists.....?......

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              ...Sunni (orthodox) Muslims believe in at least Two divinities or divine entities and this is espoused and expounded in the Koran as in Q 13/39, 85/22 and many more verses.

              ...

              Conclusion: There is therefore no real "pure monotheism" in orthodox islam, not by a long shot!
              I disagree.
              All Muslims, Sunni, Shia, or Sufi affirm the Tawheed. There is only One God.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Christians have their interpretation of the OT so, within a Christian interpretation...the Shema may mean what you say....
                The Jewish concept is here:-
                https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-nature-of-g-d

                G-d is One
                One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." This simple statement encompasses several different ideas:

                1.There is only one G-d. No other being participated in the work of creation.
                2.G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.
                3.G-d is the only being to whom we should offer praise. The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

                The Jewish and Muslim understanding of One God is similar. Christians can decide for themselves if their concept of God is similar to the Judeo-Muslim one or not....
                The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

                It says nothing about the nature of God's oneness.

                We pray to God.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  There is a difference between affirming the existence of only "One God" and conceptualization of the nature of "One God".
                  The first is a matter of the heart, the other of the intellect.
                  We learn of God's nature by Scriptures.

                  For instance we know the Holy Spirit is a person by Scriptures:

                  The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

                  Names of the Spirit

                  1. God -Acts 5:3-4
                  2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
                  3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
                  4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
                  5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
                  6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

                  Attributes of (9)

                  7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
                  8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
                  9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7
                  10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
                  11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
                  12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
                  13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
                  14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
                  15. Alive – John 14:17

                  Symbols of (3)

                  16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
                  17. Wind - John 3:5
                  18. Fire - Acts 2:3

                  Sins Against (6)

                  19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
                  20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
                  21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
                  22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
                  23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
                  24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

                  Power in Christ's Life (6)

                  25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
                  26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
                  27. Led by - Luke 4:1
                  28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
                  29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
                  30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

                  The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

                  1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
                  2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
                  3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
                  4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
                  5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
                  6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
                  7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
                  8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
                  9 Comforts - Act 9:31
                  10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
                  11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
                  12 Counsels - John 14:16
                  13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
                  14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
                  15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
                  16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
                  17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
                  18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
                  19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
                  20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
                  21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
                  22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
                  23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
                  24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
                  25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
                  26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
                  27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
                  28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
                  29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
                  30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
                  31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
                  32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
                  33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
                  34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
                  35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
                  36 Sends - Acts 13:4Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
                  37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
                  38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
                  39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
                  40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
                  41 Warns – Acts 20:23
                  42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    siam, I've been told that the holy spirit in Islam is the angel Gabriel. Do you agree?

                    Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      interesting.

                      So Christians worship the "One God"
                      Muslims worship the "One God"....

                      If only "One God" exists...could it be assumed that no other divine power exists except the "One God"?
                      Strange thing about your remark. That is precisely the same way it was presented by the Muslims speakers [uuuuuuhhhh .... excuse me, I meant to say "partners!] at an Interfaith Dialog I attended!!! Very strange ... or is it?????

                      Be that as it may .... anyone, Muhammad included, can designate anything or anyone as a god or even that person's God Wouldn't be binding on anyone other that the one doing the designating ... unless it was in some way forced [including coercion regardless of the form used].

                      Christians worship God as defined by Christian Scriptures. The "god" or "God" [your choice of terms, accurate or not] defined by Muhammad is NOT the great I AM GOD defined in and by the Christian Scriptures. You are far to intelligent and knowledgeable not to know these indisputable facts. Therefore I consider your entire post merely an attempt to divert. Also, I just now discovered your above quoted post. My bad and my apologies.

                      While we're on this issue:
                      Pickthal 5:47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

                      al-Ma'idah 005:047

                      ‏5:47 وليحكم اهل الانجيل بما انزل الله فيه ومن لم يحكم بما انزل الله فاولئك هم الفاسقون
                      ________________________________________
                      Transliteration Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli bima anzala Allahu feehi waman lam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faola-ika humu alfasiqoona
                      Literal
                      And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers
                      Now the "Gospel" Muhammad is telling the Christians in his day to judge by is that very same Gospel we use today.

                      Abrogated no doubt????

                      Or merely twisted by the Islamic exegetes????

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                        Strange thing about your remark. That is precisely the same way it was presented by the Muslims speakers [uuuuuuhhhh .... excuse me, I meant to say "partners!] at an Interfaith Dialog I attended!!! Very strange ... or is it?????

                        Be that as it may .... anyone, Muhammad included, can designate anything or anyone as a god or even that person's God Wouldn't be binding on anyone other that the one doing the designating ... unless it was in some way forced [including coercion regardless of the form used].

                        Christians worship God as defined by Christian Scriptures. The "god" or "God" [your choice of terms, accurate or not] defined by Muhammad is NOT the great I AM GOD defined in and by the Christian Scriptures. You are far to intelligent and knowledgeable not to know these indisputable facts. Therefore I consider your entire post merely an attempt to divert. Also, I just now discovered your above quoted post. My bad and my apologies.

                        While we're on this issue:

                        Now the "Gospel" Muhammad is telling the Christians in his day to judge by is that very same Gospel we use today.

                        Abrogated no doubt????

                        Or merely twisted by the Islamic exegetes????
                        I pointed out all of this and more to siam before.You can check out the whole conversation to see his responses.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Then you are living in denial as usual, just like millions of other misled and blind muslims. In a wildly imaginary world that fails to come to terms with realities in Islam's tawhid turpid history, past and present.

                          The mihna of the Abbassid era, the mutazila islamic "heresy" and shia-sunni divide are all about the irreconcilable differences and violent divide over "tawhid" among muslims. Saying "they all agree over that" is naive and mere wild imagination and false propaganda repeated like your broken record siam.

                          Learn to come to terms with realities in Islam's breakup over its inconsistent monotheism.

                          Your claims & propaganda fly in the face of orthodox muslim doctrines espoused in the Koran, exegeted by scholars like Nasafi, Ghazali and ibni Khaldun. Contradicted by the mihna inquisitions under early 3 caliphs, the shia-sunni divide and the rationalism of the mutazilites.





                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          I disagree.
                          All Muslims, Sunni, Shia, or Sufi affirm the Tawheed. There is only One God.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

                            It says nothing about the nature of God's oneness.

                            We pray to God.
                            Good.

                            So we have established that you as a Christian and I as a Muslim, agree that---a) there is only one God in existence, b) that I/Muslim worship the "One God" and that U/Christian worship the "One God"

                            U/Christian and I/Muslim may conceptualize God differently---but the basic presumption that we agree upon is that only One God exists and all prayers go to that One God----right?

                            Now suppose you as a Christian prayed to God and asked for a miracle, and I as a Muslim prayed to God and asked for a miracle---and both our wishes were granted.

                            Who granted these miracles?

                            The Muslim answer would be the "One God" granted those prayers/miracles because all prayers go to the One God and it is only God that is all-powerful. Only God's will prevails.
                            what is the answer from a monotheist Christian?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              Then you are living in denial as usual, just like millions of other misled and blind muslims. In a wildly imaginary world that fails to come to terms with realities in Islam's tawhid turpid history, past and present.

                              The mihna of the Abbassid era, the mutazila islamic "heresy" and shia-sunni divide are all about the irreconcilable differences and violent divide over "tawhid" among muslims. Saying "they all agree over that" is naive and mere wild imagination and false propaganda repeated like your broken record siam.

                              Learn to come to terms with realities in Islam's breakup over its inconsistent monotheism.

                              Your claims & propaganda fly in the face of orthodox muslim doctrines espoused in the Koran, exegeted by scholars like Nasafi, Ghazali and ibni Khaldun. Contradicted by the mihna inquisitions under early 3 caliphs, the shia-sunni divide and the rationalism of the mutazilites.

                              This is incorrect.
                              Though the debate about the ceatedness/uncreatedness (tablet) did occur, and did turn voilent---the voilence was for political reasons not doctrinal and the actual scholarly debate ended in stalemate and petered out because regardless of the status of the tablet---Muslims worship One God only and no other---so the issue had no relevance to the average Muslim person.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                                siam, I've been told that the holy spirit in Islam is the angel Gabriel. Do you agree?

                                Thanks.
                                That is the generally accepted opinion and I do not have a problem with it.....but....
                                My personal opinion is that the Quran is very careful in its use of words---if the Quran had meant Angel(Malak) Gabriel it would use that word (Malak (Arabic)= messenger/Malach (Hebrew)= messenger).
                                There is a concept in Judaism of Ruah Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit) and in the Quran Ruh al-Qudus (Holy Spirit). The word "Ruh" itself means "Spirit" and is used in various ways in the Quran. As someone from the East, I see similarities in the Jewish/ Quranic understanding and the concept of ki/Chi (Spirit that animates/life-force).

                                Comment

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