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Thread: James Tour gets to debate origin-of-life chemist!

  1. #1
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    James Tour gets to debate origin-of-life chemist!

    From this article, which has a link to the YouTube debate with origin-of-life chemist Lee Cronin. A couple of quotes from James Tour:

    "There’s things that look like they’re living, but there’s no life there."

    "I’m fine with naturalistic explanations."

    In short he'd be happy if origin-of-life researchers came up with a demonstration, he's just insisting that we have a very long way to go, and the target (life in a cell) keeps moving farther away, the problem is demonstrably more and more difficult.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    From this article, which has a link to the YouTube debate with origin-of-life chemist Lee Cronin. A couple of quotes from James Tour:

    "There’s things that look like they’re living, but there’s no life there."

    "I’m fine with naturalistic explanations."

    In short he'd be happy if origin-of-life researchers came up with a demonstration, he's just insisting that we have a very long way to go, and the target (life in a cell) keeps moving farther away, the problem is demonstrably more and more difficult.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Arguments like this remain a vague 'arguing from ignorance.' and not meaningful for an argument based on the evidence.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Arguments like this remain a vague 'arguing from ignorance.' and not meaningful for an argument based on the evidence.
    Are you saying that if "science" is ignorant about something and has no theory, "science" is still to be given credit (the benefit of the doubt) despite this ignorance?

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    Are you saying that if "science" is ignorant about something and has no theory, "science" is still to be given credit (the benefit of the doubt) despite this ignorance?
    Need examples as to what you are referring to. What I see id those who oppose science based on a religious agenda are intentionally ignorant without falsifiable theories nor hypothesis. There is a distinct lack of science and arguing from ignorance in the fundamentalist Christian objections to science.

    I am not certain where the 'benefit of the doubt' fits here, but maybe you can explain.

    This statement is really weird and meaningless in terms of science: "There’s things that look like they’re living, but there’s no life there."

    This statement is the classic 'arguing from ignorance based on a religious agenda:

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill
    In short he'd be happy if origin-of-life researchers came up with a demonstration, he's just insisting that we have a very long way to go, and the target (life in a cell) keeps moving farther away, the problem is demonstrably more and more difficult.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-28-2020 at 04:32 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #5
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Tour is the synthetic organic chemist who a few years ago, claimed that nobody can explain macroevolution after he says he asked a few fellow chemists to do so. Given that he was asking chemists rather than biologists, zoologists or geneticists, it isn't surprising he didn't get the answers he sought (you don't go to a, say, a geologist for an explanation of relativity, you go to a physicist). Further, given that his questions revealed that he was actually talking about the origin of life and not macroevolution (which is incredibly easy to explain) it isn't surprising that several of those who he asked just gave him, as he claimed, blank looks and didn't respond.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  6. Amen shunyadragon, Boxing Pythagoras amen'd this post.
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    tWebber HMS_Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Tour is the synthetic organic chemist who a few years ago, claimed that nobody can explain macroevolution after he says he asked a few fellow chemists to do so. Given that he was asking chemists rather than biologists, zoologists or geneticists, it isn't surprising he didn't get the answers he sought (you don't go to a, say, a geologist for an explanation of relativity, you go to a physicist). Further, given that his questions revealed that he was actually talking about the origin of life and not macroevolution (which is incredibly easy to explain) it isn't surprising that several of those who he asked just gave him, as he claimed, blank looks and didn't respond.
    The rest of the story is evolutionary biologist Dr. Nick Matzke of the NCSE called Tour's bluff and Tour folded. Dr. Matzke offered to fly to St. Louis and explain macroevolution to Tour with the sole condition the meeting be recorded and made public. Tour refused. Like many other ID-Creationists Tour is a self-important blowhard who knows his anti-science propaganda can't stand up to the slightest scientific scrutiny.

  8. Amen shunyadragon, gladiatrix amen'd this post.
  9. #7
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    The rest of the story is evolutionary biologist Dr. Nick Matzke of the NCSE called Tour's bluff and Tour folded. Dr. Matzke offered to fly to St. Louis and explain macroevolution to Tour with the sole condition the meeting be recorded and made public. Tour refused. Like many other ID-Creationists Tour is a self-important blowhard who knows his anti-science propaganda can't stand up to the slightest scientific scrutiny.
    An odd condition given his willingness to engage in public debates that get recorded as evidenced by the OP.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Arguments like this remain a vague 'arguing from ignorance.' and not meaningful for an argument based on the evidence.
    No, Tour is not arguing from ignorance, he's saying we're ignorant! That the origin-of-life researchers are making claims that are not justified.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #9
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    The rest of the story is evolutionary biologist Dr. Nick Matzke of the NCSE called Tour's bluff and Tour folded. Dr. Matzke offered to fly to St. Louis and explain macroevolution to Tour with the sole condition the meeting be recorded and made public. Tour refused. Like many other ID-Creationists Tour is a self-important blowhard who knows his anti-science propaganda can't stand up to the slightest scientific scrutiny.
    I know Tour is not a proponent of ID, and do you have a reference to this meeting proposal? But Tour is mainly vocal about origin-of-life questions, not evolution. Would you have something to say about Tour's views on origin-of-life?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #10
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I know Tour is not a proponent of ID, and do you have a reference to this meeting proposal? But Tour is mainly vocal about origin-of-life questions, not evolution. Would you have something to say about Tour's views on origin-of-life?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    In 2013, the website/blog "Uncommon Descent," which describes its purpose as "Serving The Intelligent Design Community" (created by William Dembski who lost interest in it -- though it still serves as his primary platform for making announcements -- and then taken over by Denyse O'Leary) made a big fuss over it: Professor James Tour Accepts Nick Matzke’s Offer To Explain Macroevolution.

    After going on about it for awhile they finally mention Tour's condition that had not been in the initial offer:

    … on one condition!

    There’s just one condition that Professor Tour attached to the meeting, however. In his email to me, he stated: “It shall not be recorded or extend beyond the three of us as this is not for show but for my edification.”


    [*bolding and coloring in original*]

    O'Leary then takes responsibility for failing to mention "his wish that the meeting be recorded" although she admits that her email to him did contain a link to where this was mentioned. She excused his failure to check it out saying he's "a busy man" so he didn't bother to look at it.

    In any case, this was an odd condition given that he has shown that he has no trouble engaging in public debates which are recorded and shown online.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  13. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.

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