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Thread: James Tour gets to debate origin-of-life chemist!

  1. #61
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But how have I claimed he made conclusions he did not make?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You claim his research makes more specific claims than a plausible model and work in progress. He is not claiming everything takes place in one step, because his work is incomplete.

    You need to cite Szostak that he is proposing everything is happening in one step and his work is complete as in all steps are known, and not Tour
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-04-2020 at 03:17 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
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    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #62
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    You need to cite Szostak that he is proposing everything is happening in one step and his work is complete as in all steps are known, and not Tour
    The one step is in Szostak's diagram, and where have I said Szostak claimed all steps are known?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #63
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    The one step is in Szostak's diagram, and where have I said Szostak claimed all steps are known?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Silly, the diagram is not Szostak's research. You need to cite Szostak specifically, and he described his research at this stage as developing a plausable model.

    Still waiting for you to cite Szostak and be specific.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. Amen Seeker amen'd this post.
  5. #64
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Well, I'll let you have the last word, and leave it to the readers as to whether I have cited Szostak.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #65
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I'll let you have the last word, and leave it to the readers as to whether I have cited Szostak.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You have not cited Szostak ethically, since he has written over 20 peer reviewed articles on the subject to develop his plausible model, and all you have done is refer to the an illustration or maybe a diagram.

    Regardless of whether you post again or not you have failed to actually cite his research directly nor properly. Like all your threads you run away without citing peer reviewed research to support your assertion sa based on a religious agenda.

    Remember Tour is not a biologist nor geneticist. He is a chemist and engineer.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour

    James M. Tour is an American nanotechnologist and both Professor of Materials Science and NanoEngineering, and Professor of Computer Science.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Still waiting . . .
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-06-2020 at 05:59 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #66
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I think it is:

    Source: James Tour

    But all of the above is minor compared to Szostak’s showing that in a single step, heat and light can make a compound that resembles a dehydrated nucleotide .... There are so many steps involved in such a transformation.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source

    So, most of this thread is just about some guy complaining part of one diagram needs some more detail? Seriously?

    Let's actually be serious: Tour, and thus by extension you, made the argument because he felt two things:
    1) Szostak was being misleading.
    2) Emphasizing the multiple reactions involved would make people who don't understand the research think this means things are less probable.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  8. Amen Seeker, shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  9. #67
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    So, most of this thread is just about some guy complaining part of one diagram needs some more detail? Seriously?
    That's been most of this thread, but Tour was taking an origin-of-life researcher to task in the debate for overstating his results.

    Tour, and thus by extension you, made the argument because he felt two things:
    1) Szostak was being misleading.
    Yes.

    2) Emphasizing the multiple reactions involved would make people who don't understand the research think this means things are less probable.
    Well, I think that multiple reactions do make the result less probable than if it was possible in one step.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #68
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That's been most of this thread, but Tour was taking an origin-of-life researcher to task in the debate for overstating his results.
    Looks like your back again like a broken record.

    As referenced Tour is overstating Szostak's claims. Szostak claims involve only proposing a plausable model.

    Yes.
    No, Tour is being misleading to justify his agenda. He is not a biologist nor geneticist, nor has he published anything in the field, nor has he dialogued or worked with scientists in these disciplines.

    Well, I think that multiple reactions do make the result less probable than if it was possible in one step.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Szostak did not claim they happened in one step, and you have failed to directly cite Szosak to justify your claim based on a religius agenda.

    Still waiting . . .
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #69
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    For starters, i'm glad you've changed your argument and are now being honest about what this discussion was about. It'd be easier if you were more consistently honest about what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That's been most of this thread, but Tour was taking an origin-of-life researcher to task in the debate for overstating his results.
    Ok, so let's look at why you think that....

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I think that multiple reactions do make the result less probable than if it was possible in one step.
    Then we can add chemistry to the long list of things you're incredibly ignorant about.

    The reaction of octane with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide and water takes dozens of steps, yet it happens every time you drive a car. Those dozens of steps are needed because multiple individual oxygen molecules have to be broken open, individual hydrogens pulled off the octane, intermediate carbon chains get broken apart, etc. And there's no particularly favored order of doing so, which means that if you react a population of molecules, you literally have thousands of individual steps taking place.

    Yet that reaction is highly probable.

    That's because what matters in chemical reactions is a combination of the activation energy and the total change in free energy. That's it. Your idea - more steps = less probable - would cause you to flunk even high school chemistry. You've been misled by Tour, entirely because he knew how to play on simplistic ignorance such as your own.


    Doesn't it ever bother you that you keep saying such incredibly stupid things? Doesn't it ever cause you to rethink whether you're even capable of evaluating any of these arguments?

    While i'm asking these sorts of questions: it's blatantly obvious that people who know these topics much better than you do are telling you that the people you keep listening to are misleading you. Does that ever cause you to rethink your blind faith in them?



    EDITED TO ADD: you've also once again proven you're not even paying attention to your own arguments - Szostak was summarizing someone else's results in the figure that Tour is objecting to.
    Last edited by TheLurch; 04-08-2020 at 06:14 AM.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  12. #70
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    The one step is in Szostak's diagram, and where have I said Szostak claimed all steps are known?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You're claiming Szostak over stated the claims of his research without any citations of Szostak's research, just a diagram. Is that all?

    Szostak did not claim all steps were known. The diagram does not represent the conclusions of Szostak;s research. It just represents a diagram of part of his plausible model.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-08-2020 at 11:02 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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