Church nonessential?

[seanD]

This is a stupid question. They are trying to stop people spreading a deadly disease not destroy Christianity.

I think it's foolish to think the destruction of Christianity will only come by force and not some government edict guised as "reasonable precaution." I don't think the former is how Satan always works. In fact, as a deceiver, I'm guessing the majority of the time he doesn't work that way. I think he'd be much more subtle in a culture like ours protected by laws.

[oxmixmudd]

I think it's foolish to think the destruction of Christianity will only come by force and not some government edict guised as "reasonable precaution." I don't think the former is how Satan always works. In fact, as a deceiver, I'm guessing the majority of the time he doesn't work that way. I think he'd be much more subtle in a culture like ours protected by laws.

The Church can't be destroyed.

There is no need to put other's lives at risk to meet together at this time. We can meet together over the internet as groups large and small. We can meet together as families. There are many means to continue to function as the Church and to teach and preach and serve in these times without flagrantly ignoring the welfare of ourselves and especially others, especially unbelievers. Our love for them DEMANDS we not put their lives unnecessarily at risk to serve our own needs. And by loving them in this way, by being responsible and caring and helping meet the needs that arise as part of this, we are BEING the Church.

[seanD]

The Church can't be destroyed.

There is no need to put other's lives at risk to meet together at this time. We can meet together over the internet as groups large and small. We can meet together as families. There are many means to continue to function as the Church and to teach and preach and serve in these times without flagrantly ignoring the welfare of ourselves and especially others, especially unbelievers. Our love for them DEMANDS we not put their lives unnecessarily at risk to serve our own needs. And by loving them in this way, by being responsible and caring and helping meet the needs that arise as part of this, we are BEING the Church.

Okay, well you're just virtue signalling here and stating the obvious. Congrats. No, the church CAN'T be destroyed ultimately, spiritually speaking, obviously ("the gates of hell will not prevail"). But Satan can and will try in the material, won't he (unless you don't believe in Satan, which I wouldn't be surprised if you don't)? Just ask our brothers and sisters in the mid east; he's trying rather hard. Since he can't get away with that strong arm tactic here, he'll try in more subtle ways.

[oxmixmudd]

Okay, well you're just virtue signalling here and stating the obvious. Congrats. No, the church CAN'T be destroyed ultimately, spiritually speaking, obviously ("the gates of hell will not prevail"). But Satan can and will try in the material, won't he (unless you don't believe in Satan, which I wouldn't be surprised if you don't)? Just ask our brothers and sisters in the mid east; he's trying rather hard. Since he can't get away with that strong arm tactic here, he'll try in more subtle ways.

SeanD - I'm trying to help you understand something absolutely critical to this circumstance - we do not live under the law (of do this, don't do that). But we are under the 'law' as it were of His Love and Grace. And that love means we will love and care for, minister to those around us. Further, Satan can't be defeated with a sword, which metaphorically is how you are approaching this. He is defeated by us continuing to live out that Grace and Love of Christ we are called to in the environment in which we live and serve. It does not matter HOW we fellowship and worship together. It only matters only that we do. And we have in our day, in our western countries, perfectly safe (for others) means of meeting together. This restriction is not some attack on Christians where they've made it illegal to worship. It is a necessary action to same millions of lives. This is deadly situation where the weakest among us are very vulnerable. And as such it is our calling, our faithful service to God to find a way to meet together and to minister the gospel that does not spread this disease and put innocent people at mortal risk.

So be creative. Find ways to worship and serve that do not put the general population at risk - and in doing so then express God's love for humankind.

[rogue06]

The Church can't be destroyed.

There is no need to put other's lives at risk to meet together at this time. We can meet together over the internet as groups large and small. We can meet together as families. There are many means to continue to function as the Church and to teach and preach and serve in these times without flagrantly ignoring the welfare of ourselves and especially others, especially unbelievers. Our love for them DEMANDS we not put their lives unnecessarily at risk to serve our own needs. And by loving them in this way, by being responsible and caring and helping meet the needs that arise as part of this, we are BEING the Church.

If it could weather the Black Death which wiped out between a quarter and a third of the population (and left a large number of cynical survivors), there is no doubt it can survive this.

[oxmixmudd]

If it could weather the Black Death which wiped out between a quarter and a third of the population (and left a large number of cynical survivors), there is no doubt it can survive this.

Indeed it can. But I hope you are not implying we should act necessarily exactly as they did. They did not know where it was from, why it was there, or what they needed to do to stop it.

[seanD]

SeanD - I'm trying to help you understand something absolutely critical to this circumstance - we do not live under the law (of do this, don't do that). But we are under the 'law' as it were of His Love and Grace. And that love means we will love and care for, minister to those around us. Further, Satan can't be defeated with a sword, which metaphorically is how you are approaching this. He is defeated by us continuing to live out that Grace and Love of Christ we are called to in the environment in which we live and serve. It does not matter HOW we fellowship and worship together. It only matters only that we do. And we have in our day, in our western countries, perfectly safe (for others) means of meeting together. This is restriction not some attack on Christians where they've made it illegal to worship. It is a necessary action to same millions of lives. This is deadly situation where the weakest among us are very vulnerable. And as such it is our calling, our faithful service to God to find a way to meet together and to minister the gospel that does not spread this disease and put innocent people at mortal risk.

This is just wrapping a pretty spiritual bow on a clear statist action. And it is indeed a statist action when you have scumbags like De Blasio threatening to shut down churches permanently that don't comply. This doesn't surprise me though, since you're pro-statist and make no bones about that, so any further discussion about it with you is pretty pointless. But I was a little surprised by the response from sparko... though maybe not by much.

[JimL]

Florida governor Desantos finally ordered a lockdown, shelter-in-place order, and then basically exempted churches. In other words no more crowds on the beaches, restaurants, etc etc., no more crowding together, unless you want to crowd together in church. What sense does that make? We are trying to beat this pandemic, to save lives, shutting down the entire economy, but church gatherings are for some reason exempt from that order. The virus doesn't care if people are crowded together at the beach, restaurants or at churches, it's going to transmit wherever they gather.

[oxmixmudd]

This is just wrapping a pretty spiritual bow on a clear statist action. And it is indeed a statist action when you have scumbags like De Blasio threatening to shut down churches permanently that don't comply. This doesn't surprise me though, since you're pro-statist and make no bones about that, so any further discussion about it with you is pretty pointless. But I was a little surprised by the response from sparko... though maybe not by much.

I'm sorry you see it that way, but clearly there is nothing I can say that you will hear. I'd suggest you re-read Galations, and 1 Corinthian 13. Maybe a few times, and praying each time. Try it, see if that does not change your sense of this. What can it hurt?

[rogue06]

Indeed it can. But I hope you are not implying we should act necessarily exactly as they did. They did not know where it was from, why it was there, or what they needed to do to stop it.

I don't think that I said nor implied that.

Also, there was very little they really could do. Even when they killed rats it probably made it worse in that the plague carrying fleas just switched hosts -- including to us.

[oxmixmudd]

I don't think that I said nor implied that.

Also, there was very little they really could do. Even when they killed rats it probably made it worse in that the plague carrying fleas just switched hosts -- including to us.

You were good, but in context with seanD and norrin there was a way of interpreting your words that left that option open (i.e. you could have been implying that since they continued to meet during the plague we should too during this pandemic), so that was why I said "I hope you do not ...".

Good to know you did not mean that

But yes, my point is that if we believe what the Bible says about the Church, it can't be destroyed and will endure till Christ returns.

[oxmixmudd]

Florida governor Desantos finally ordered a lockdown, shelter-in-place order, and then basically exempted churches. In other words no more crowds on the beaches, restaurants, etc etc., no more crowding together, unless you want to crowd together in church. What sense does that make? We are trying to beat this pandemic, to save lives, shutting down the entire economy, but church gatherings are for some reason exempt from that order. The virus doesn't care if people are crowded together at the beach, restaurants or at churches, it's going to transmit wherever they gather.

It is tricky in terms of the free exercise of religion though. I understand the point has validity in a technical sense, and it comes up against the same sort of issue yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater does. But I do believe it is misguided for Christians to think this scenario is one that warrants flaunting this 'right'. Christianity is not about demanding 'my rights'. In fact it is about the opposite, the laying down of my life (my 'right's as it were), our lives, for the sake of others - at least on a personal level.

And while there are circumstances where meeting together in protest and as a means of defining our commitment to Christ in the midst of persecution is justified, perhaps even required, this is not one of them.

[Ronson]

The Church-of-One, where role of pastor is based being the cleverest one in church?

A holdover from Catholicism, IMO. But one pastor will roll into town and interprets a lot of scripture one way, and the next guy is completely different. I really don't need these people - strangers - wagging their fingers at me.

And this doesn't even address (for me anyway) the subject literalism and inerrancy.

[shunyadragon]

Unfortunately everyone considers their own religious beliefs essential and necessary whether a church or whatever over other alternatives or nothing. From a more objective perspective outside we individually or as a community believe it is only necessary for our own desire for a sense of community or belonging.

[oxmixmudd]

A holdover from Catholicism, IMO. But one pastor will roll into town and interprets a lot of scripture one way, and the next guy is completely different. I really don't need these people - strangers - wagging their fingers at me.

And this doesn't even address (for me anyway) the subject literalism and inerrancy.

I find that hearing others express what they see in scripture opens my eyes to new ideas, and allows me to evaluate my own positions.

Church is actually not just (or perhaps even mostly) about what another fellow says from a pulpit. It is also about helping and serving others and meeting one another's needs - both spiritually and physically. It's about a community of people rejoicing in their faith and love, but also finding out how hard it is to actually live out Christ's teachings and struggling to do that. The pastor or teaching elders act as a needed guide in that - not to dimish them. But sadly, this second part can get lost in the personality cult church that is not uncommon in Evangelical Protestantism, but it is an element difficult if not impossible to incorporate into solo-Christianity. My observation has been solo-Christianity often doesn't fare well in the long run (excepting extreme circumstances).