Church nonessential?

[carpedm9587]

Church is now apparently nonessential, like a bar or restaurant, but unlike the liquor store or cannabis store. Has the time passed by the idea church as an integral institution of western society?

Any thoughts?

Yes

[oxmixmudd]

Yes

no ... I'm pretty sure you would not care much for a society with no churches carpe - as annoying as some of the more strident members of the faith can be.

[carpedm9587]

no ... I'm pretty sure you would not care much for a society with no churches carpe - as annoying as some of the more strident members of the faith can be.

The question was "are they essential." My answer remains "no."

My perception is that religion is fast moving towards doing more harm than good. That perception is bolstered by the religious support for a man like Mr. Trump, and the current resistance of so many churches to the quite common-sense plea for social isolation during a pandemic.

Bear in mind that I believe there is no god. So continued obeisance to a non-existent being when that obeisance actually threatens our social fabric makes no sense. In the past, the good done by churches outweighed the threat, so I didn't have that opinion. When I was Christian, I certainly didn't have that opinion. But much has changed since I was younger. Now I have that opinion.

But if I were to discuss that opinion with any Christian, you would probably be my choice!

[oxmixmudd]

The question was "are they essential." My answer remains "no."

My perception is that religion is fast moving towards doing more harm than good. That perception is bolstered by the religious support for a man like Mr. Trump, and the current resistance of so many churches to the quite common-sense plea for social isolation during a pandemic.

Bear in mind that I believe there is no god. So continued obeisance to a non-existent being when that obeisance actually threatens our social fabric makes no sense. In the past, the good done by churches outweighed the threat, so I didn't have that opinion. When I was Christian, I certainly didn't have that opinion. But much has changed since I was younger. Now I have that opinion.

But if I were to discuss that opinion with any Christian, you would probably be my choice!

It is easy with situations like US evangelicals and their support for something as absurd as Donald Trump and their public focus on making sure certain people are properly condemned, to lose sight of what the Church in it truest, humblest form brings into the world. One of the fundamental elements of Christian faith is the concept that ALL people, ALL races, ALL genders are equal before God, and valuable before Him. While not all people grasp that, it's existence is and has become fundamental to our way of life. Yet it is sourced in Christian faith (though ironically abandoned by some of its more strident members).

Infusing that in a culture is not easy. Indeed, it has taken thousands of years of Christian culture for that to grow to ideals of equal status for men and women, or equal status for people of differing races and cultures. But the words that seeded it were written two thousand years ago:

'For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall be saved'

and

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

or even things like Christ condemning the Pharisee's self-righteous proclamation of his own goodness over the sinner beating his chest in true humility and repentance. The fundamental concept that a great one among us SERVES the others and does not lord it over those 'under' him as it were.

I will not claim these concepts (and many others) are unique to Christian faith, but the extent to which they were seeds for and grew into where we are today is unique within Christian faith - at least historically.

Regardless of what you've heard, or what has perhaps been improperly tied to Him, what Christ brings into the world is love, redemption, forgiveness. I know you don't always see that from us, but that is what He brings to as many as will allow Him to.

And I honestly do not believe you would like a world without what faith in Him brings - even as much as some of us goof it up.

And I do indeed believe it is essential to maintaining and reseeding those same elements in each new generation. The church is indeed essential to our society.

[seanD]

My perception is that religion is fast moving towards doing more harm than good. That perception is bolstered by the religious support for a man like Mr. Trump, and the current resistance of so many churches to the quite common-sense plea for social isolation during a pandemic.

That's odd because Xi Jinping is an atheist. China didn't do so hot in this situation did they? It may or may not have been a result of his personal belief, I can't prove that one way or the other, but the matter of the fact is, we could accurately say an atheist is responsible for the global mess we're in now.

[Charles]

That's odd because Xi Jinping is an atheist. China didn't do so hot in this situation did they? It may or may not have been a result of his personal belief, I can't prove that one way or the other, but the matter of the fact is, we could accurately say an atheist is responsible for the global mess we're in now.

So, you say yourself that you don't know whether Xi Jinping's personal belief played into his way of handling it. And yet, seemingly solely based on the fact that he is an atheist, you find it odd that Carpe takes issues with churches gathering during a pandemic and putting other peoples lives at risk. You would think Carpe should think that if an atheist did something wrong it must somehow follow that Christians not taking care of their fellow humans beings life and well being must somehow be good? Because somehow if they have opposite beliefs it must follow that if one is bad the other is good?

[seanD]

So, you say yourself that you don't know whether Xi Jinping's personal belief played into his way of handling it. And yet, seemingly solely based on the fact that he is an atheist, you find it odd that Carpe takes issues with churches gathering during a pandemic and putting other peoples lives at risk. You would think Carpe should think that if an atheist did something wrong it must somehow follow that Christians not taking care of their fellow humans beings life and well being must somehow be good? Because somehow if they have opposite beliefs it must follow that if one is bad the other is good?

It's not just some churches defying the goofy "social distance" rule, but I know since you have a personal animosity to religious belief, that's what you're going to obsess about. Folks of every belief and make-up have been defying that rule.

If you really want to get down to details about this situation and off topic, I think we should not have shut everything down. This will have far reaching, WORSE negative consequences economically than anything the virus can do (which is still rife with all sorts of conflicting info and views as to the potency and severity of it). And that's not because of any religious views, but my understanding of economics.

[oxmixmudd]

That's odd because Xi Jinping is an atheist. China didn't do so hot in this situation did they? It may or may not have been a result of his personal belief, I can't prove that one way or the other, but the matter of the fact is, we could accurately say an atheist is responsible for the global mess we're in now.

That is absurd. First of all, the US was behind S.Korea for quite some time. But S. Korea has it contained. So how if it is all Xi's fault did S. Korea do that? And how is it all these other nations are crashing and burning when a democratic nation close to China has it under control? How is it Xi's fault that we, with more time than S.Korea to act and to mitigate are now 1/4 of the cases in the entire world?

No, the blame for that lies in our own bumbling government and in many ways on our greedy lust for money and profit.

Man up seanD. We bungled this. Trump bungled this. Our leaders bungled this. We had all the power we needed to nip it in the bud, and we squandered it on useless rhetoric and infighting.

And we are still squandering our capacity to control this on useless rhetoric and infighting.

[carpedm9587]

It is easy with situations like US evangelicals and their support for something as absurd as Donald Trump and their public focus on making sure certain people are properly condemned, to lose sight of what the Church in it truest, humblest form brings into the world. One of the fundamental elements of Christian faith is the concept that ALL people, ALL races, ALL genders are equal before God, and valuable before Him. While not all people grasp that, it's existence is and has become fundamental to our way of life. Yet it is sourced in Christian faith (though ironically abandoned by some of its more strident members).

Infusing that in a culture is not easy. Indeed, it has taken thousands of years of Christian culture for that to grow to ideals of equal status for men and women, or equal status for people of differing races and cultures. But the words that seeded it were written two thousand years ago:

'For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall be saved'

and

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

or even things like Christ condemning the Pharisee's self-righteous proclamation of his own goodness over the sinner beating his chest in true humility and repentance. The fundamental concept that a great one among us SERVES the others and does not lord it over those 'under' him as it were.

I will not claim these concepts (and many others) are unique to Christian faith, but the extent to which they were seeds for and grew into where we are today is unique within Christian faith - at least historically.

Regardless of what you've heard, or what has perhaps been improperly tied to Him, what Christ brings into the world is love, redemption, forgiveness. I know you don't always see that from us, but that is what He brings to as many as will allow Him to.

And I honestly do not believe you would like a world without what faith in Him brings - even as much as some of us goof it up.

And I do indeed believe it is essential to maintaining and reseeding those same elements in each new generation. The church is indeed essential to our society.

I want to give any response adequate thought. But I have read your response and will give it all due consideration.

Brings back memories, actually. I used to say much the same things...

[simplicio]

That's odd because Xi Jinping is an atheist. China didn't do so hot in this situation did they? It may or may not have been a result of his personal belief, I can't prove that one way or the other, but the matter of the fact is, we could accurately say an atheist is responsible for the global mess we're in now.

That's like saying G-d is responsible for this pandemic.

There was not enough information even after it hit the nursing home in Seattle, we in the US were arguing to what extent were the cases nosocomial (hospital generated disease), how closely related those cases were to travelers, etc. It was only after the outbreak broke out was it obvious that its transmission is person to person, like the flu. That is true for both US and China, if not among health professionals. Many fixated on the wet markets, animal vectors, even in the US.

Carpe is wrong in describing it in terms of religion, it is more accurately a partisan political phenomenon, there are countless articles on that.

[Charles]

It's not just some churches defying the goofy "social distance" rule, but I know since you have a personal animosity to religious belief, that's what you're going to obsess about. Folks of every belief and make-up have been defying that rule.

If you really want to get down to details about this situation and off topic, I think we should not have shut everything down. This will have far reaching, WORSE negative consequences economically than anything the virus can do (which is still rife with all sorts of conflicting info and views as to the potency and severity of it). And that's not because of any religious views, but my understanding of economics.

That is a lot of talking your way out of the points made and it is sugar coated with a false statement that I have a personal animosity to relgious belief.

[carpedm9587]

That's odd because Xi Jinping is an atheist. China didn't do so hot in this situation did they? It may or may not have been a result of his personal belief, I can't prove that one way or the other, but the matter of the fact is, we could accurately say an atheist is responsible for the global mess we're in now.

Ummm...so what? You can also say a man is responsible for this situation, which says nothing about "men" in general. You can say a bi-pedal is responsible for this situation, which says nothing about "bi-pedals" in general. You can say a human, a man with hair, an Asian man, or <insert any other characteristic that Xi has here> is "responsible for this situation." You would have a hard time linking his choices to any of those characteristics...including his atheism.

This appears to be part of "atheists bad" mantra. But it is a claim without substance.

[simplicio]

That is absurd. First of all, the US was behind S.Korea for quite some time. But S. Korea has it contained. So how if it is all Xi's fault did S. Korea do that? And how is it all these other nations are crashing and burning when a democratic nation close to China has it under control? How is it Xi's fault that we, with more time than S.Korea to act and to mitigate are now 1/4 of the cases in the entire world?

No, the blame for that lies in our own bumbling government and in many ways on our greedy lust for money and profit.

Man up seanD. We bungled this. Trump bungled this. Our leaders bungled this. We had all the power we needed to nip it in the bud, and we squandered it on useless rhetoric and infighting.

And we are still squandering our capacity to control this on useless rhetoric and infighting.

Ya but..... China lied for months bout it! (sarcasm)

[seanD]

That is absurd. First of all, the US was behind S.Korea for quite some time. But S. Korea has it contained. So how if it is all Xi's fault did S. Korea do that? And how is it all these other nations are crashing and burning when a democratic nation close to China has it under control? How is it Xi's fault that we, with more time than S.Korea to act and to mitigate are now 1/4 of the cases in the entire world?

No, the blame for that lies in our own bumbling government and in many ways on our greedy lust for money and profit.

Man up seanD. We bungled this. Trump bungled this. Our leaders bungled this. We had all the power we needed to nip it in the bud, and we squandered it on useless rhetoric and infighting.

And we are still squandering our capacity to control this on useless rhetoric and infighting.

Go on, bro, defend your atheist buddies. Show your true colors. And you did a terrible job doing it, btw. Fact is, it started in China, an ATHEISTIC country with an atheistic system and values, and then spread all around the globe, and then they lied about the facts (and probably still lying) in the aftermath. And yet your buddy wants to go on a tirade about Christian belief and its effect on the world. Ouch, that must really bother you.

[carpedm9587]

It's not just some churches defying the goofy "social distance" rule, but I know since you have a personal animosity to religious belief, that's what you're going to obsess about. Folks of every belief and make-up have been defying that rule.

This seems to be arguing, "you can't blame the churches because they are not the only ones doing it." Excuse me? "Your honor, you can't convict me of murder because I'm not the only one doing it!" I think that argument would fail quickly.

If you really want to get down to details about this situation and off topic, I think we should not have shut everything down. This will have far reaching, WORSE negative consequences economically than anything the virus can do (which is still rife with all sorts of conflicting info and views as to the potency and severity of it). And that's not because of any religious views, but my understanding of economics.

And I maintain that any economic impact can be countered by neighbors, friends, family, and the various levels of government. We can share food, help those in need, and drive a sense of community out of tragedy. That is already happening. What we cannot do is breathe life back into those who die as a result of this pandemic.