Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Church nonessential?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    There is an important difference between accepting "great personal risk" and accepting risks to others. You are not a martyr or a hero of faith if what you do as a healty person who would most likely be able to survive the virus could be the cause that others who are not able to survive it will have to die. And that, unfortunately, is what we are talking about in this case.
    I am not denying that at all. But if we can dispense with church worship, the we need to re assess our view of corporate worship. Under normal circumstances, there is no dispensation of this form, from a Catholic perspective, except under the most extreme circumstances. Some have downplayed the seriousness of this epidemic. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life (CC 1324), and the consecration at the altar is the intersection of heaven and earth. The Catholic Church holds avoiding corporate worship as sin, that is in stark contrast to Protestant views.

    The personal risk was in reference earlier in the thread about the early church, which came from a Christian who sees great spiritual risk in associating in worship with those who are not doctrinally pure.

    This topic involves the hierarchy of values, and how we resolve moral dilemmas. The dilemmas arise because two goods compete, in this case collective worship and public safety. As soon as one is chosen over the other, then we are faced with we describe the importance of the other.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      I am not denying that at all. But if we can dispense with church worship, the we need to re assess our view of corporate worship. Under normal circumstances, there is no dispensation of this form, from a Catholic perspective, except under the most extreme circumstances. Some have downplayed the seriousness of this epidemic. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life (CC 1324), and the consecration at the altar is the intersection of heaven and earth. The Catholic Church holds avoiding corporate worship as sin, that is in stark contrast to Protestant views.

      The personal risk was in reference earlier in the thread about the early church, which came from a Christian who sees great spiritual risk in associating in worship with those who are not doctrinally pure.

      This topic involves the hierarchy of values, and how we resolve moral dilemmas. The dilemmas arise because two goods compete, in this case collective worship and public safety. As soon as one is chosen over the other, then we are faced with we describe the importance of the other.
      In this case I would say that if you disregard public safety then you are not taking care of the weak and you are not acting like you would want others to act if you were vulnerable in this situation. I have a hard time imagining how it must feel to worship a God who has just asked or forced you to possibly cause death to others and damage the effort everyone else is doing to hopefully establish normal circumstances as soon as possible for everybody, including of course religious groups and churches.
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Charles View Post
        In this case I would say that if you disregard public safety then you are not taking care of the weak and you are not acting like you would want others to act if you were vulnerable in this situation. I have a hard time imagining how it must feel to worship a God who has just asked or forced you to possibly cause death to others and damage the effort everyone else is doing to hopefully establish normal circumstances as soon as possible for everybody, including of course religious groups and churches.
        And you also have a hard time imagining the reconciling of disparate views, which is what that post was about.

        I know you are not Christian, but I have given the view that we need not fear that which harms the body, rather fear that which harms the soul; which is a declaration of the primacy of the spiritual. Yet we are presented with a situation in which the only sensible course of action is one which elevates the material over the spiritual goods. A seeming contradiction.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          And you also have a hard time imagining the reconciling of disparate views, which is what that post was about.

          I know you are not Christian, but I have given the view that we need not fear that which harms the body, rather fear that which harms the soul; which is a declaration of the primacy of the spiritual. Yet we are presented with a situation in which the only sensible course of action is one which elevates the material over the spiritual goods. A seeming contradiction.
          In this case you are taking care of other peoples's lives and well being and not only your own body. I think you are creating a seeming contradiction because you pay too little attention to the obligation to do unto others...
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            In this case you are taking care of other peoples's lives and well being and not only your own body. I think you are creating a seeming contradiction because you pay too little attention to the obligation to do unto others...
            A reply which elevates the material goods, the body over the soul. I will ask a question, Do you think that we should fear for the soul?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              A reply which elevates the material goods, the body over the soul. I will ask a question, Do you think that we should fear for the soul?
              Of course. And you seem to avoid the fact that there is a soul in each of the bodies. Not risking other people's lives is not merely a focus on material goods or bodies. It is a focus on minds, spirits and souls.

              If you are so dependent on being specific physical places with other "bodies", perhaps you are the one who puts focus on what is material.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                Of course. And you seem to avoid the fact that there is a soul in each of the bodies. Not risking other people's lives is not merely a focus on material goods or bodies. It is a focus on minds, spirits and souls.

                If you are so dependent on being specific physical places with other "bodies", perhaps you are the one who puts focus on what is material.
                But behind that idea of caring for the soul, is the idea of nourishment and growth for that soul, and a host of arguments made by Christians.

                You seem to take the line that I am arguing for the churches resuming the practice of large gatherings on Sunday. What I am arguing is to place the theology into the real world context.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                  But behind that idea of caring for the soul, is the idea of nourishment and growth for that soul, and a host of arguments made by Christians.

                  You seem to take the line that I am arguing for the churches resuming the practice of large gatherings on Sunday. What I am arguing is to place the theology into the real world context.
                  Theology already is a part of the real world context.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Police arrest Florida pastor for holding church services despite stay-at-home order

                    On Monday, Florida sheriff's deputies arrested the evangelical pastor, who has continued to host large church services despite public orders urging residents to stay home to help contain the spread of the novel coronavirus.
                    I think it is fair. How about you?
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Charles View Post
                      Rodney Howard-Brown is a heretical WoF false prophet and he should be held accountable for more than holding this service. But I also think that those who follow him and met together knowing they should not be meeting together should be held accountable for attending the service. Nobody held a gun to their heads as far as I know.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Rodney Howard-Brown is a heretical WoF false prophet and he should be held accountable for more than holding this service. But I also think that those who follow him and met together knowing they should not be meeting together should be held accountable for attending the service. Nobody held a gun to their heads as far as I know.
                        I agree with you with regard to those who attended the service. They are putting other people's lives at risk - they know what they are doing.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          No one should be "held accountable" for exercising rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            Church is now apparently nonessential, like a bar or restaurant, but unlike the liquor store or cannabis store. Has the time passed by the idea church as an integral institution of western society?

                            Any thoughts?
                            I stopped attending church years ago. I like the idea of gathering with like-minded people, but I don't like being preached at by people who can't prove they are any more knowledgeable than myself.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              I stopped attending church years ago. I like the idea of gathering with like-minded people, but I don't like being preached at by people who can't prove they are any more knowledgeable than myself.
                              The Church-of-One, where role of pastor is based being the cleverest one in church?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                No one should be "held accountable" for exercising rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
                                You can't yell fire in a crowed theater even though the constitution guarantees free speech. This is effectively the same thing. We can and do meet together during these times - we have the technology to do so. There is no real reason to put others lives at risk to serve our own desires and needs. We are responsible for walking in the light we have - i.e. we know we can spread this disease by meeting together in person, and we do not live under the law - church attendance is something we do out of our love for Christ and each other, not something we do because we are required to do so in the sense of a law (re Galatians) or something which must happen according to some prescribed form. So we meet together in the method that exists at this time. It would be no different if we were confined in a prison and could only 'have church' by singing together from our separate cells.
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-03-2020, 08:18 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                184 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                417 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                88 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X