Originally posted by Darth Executor
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by Darfius View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]43931[/ATTACH]Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAs if you were interested in dialogue in the first place. You don't even know that DE is a preterist; he merely has the temerity to ask for further explication. I'll take this as tacit admission that you can't provide it.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostGive me the cliffs' notes version (also Jesus says quite a bit more than just "this generation" to make it clear who He is talking to).
And I don't deny the OD was stated in way it would benefit the early Christians and help them avoid getting tangled in the war, though I think Luke's version is much more relevant in that regard.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNext time, attempt to comprehend my argument before responding. Thanks.Last edited by seanD; 04-04-2020, 02:54 AM.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI'm not sure if this is what Darfius was arguing but the way I look at it, Jesus wasn't specifying a particular generation, he was underscoring the span of time it would take for the signs to unfold and be fulfilled. Wars (plural) and rumors of wars, along with all the other signs and events might have given them the impression this would happen over the course of many generations in an ancient world. To the contrary, all these things would be fulfilled over a span of one generation. A clearer way to put it would be: "This generation seeing the signs I'm describing will not pass until they're all fulfilled.""As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostYes, but isn't this the basic preterist position (which you were arguing against)?
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostI linked him to my thread where I gave a definitive refutation to the "this generation" prooftext. I'll take this as a tacit admission that your head is a fair ways up your butt.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seanD View PostYou are really bad making your points clear. You're the only one on this forum I have that problem with.
My NKJV denotes paragraph breaks in the Greek, though those merely confirm the evidence I already provided. It also has subject headings in the same places, which also merely confirm the evidence I provided.
1 Thes. 4:1-8 is a discrete subject.
Verse 9 starts "But concerning brotherly love....", introducing a new subject; vv. 9-12 are a different topic.
Verse 13 starts "But I do not want you to be ignorant....", introducing another subject; vv. 13-18 are a literary unit.
Chapter 5, verse 1 starts, "But concerning the times....", introducing another subject; vv. 1-11 are a literary unit.
Thus, the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5 are different subjects. It is 5:1-11 which is parallel with the Olivet Discourse; 4:13-18 do not appear in the Olivet Discourse at all.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't know why you appear unable to follow my arguments. You could, perhaps, ask for further explanation rather than completely ignore that I'm providing support for a point. I'll freely admit that I tend to err on the side of brevity, but I provided more support for my argument than you did (I had to essentially re-read all of 1 Thessalonians and figure out what the heck you were referring to). Here, I'll spell it out in more detail:
My NKJV denotes paragraph breaks in the Greek, though those merely confirm the evidence I already provided. It also has subject headings in the same places, which also merely confirm the evidence I provided.
1 Thes. 4:1-8 is a discrete subject.
Verse 9 starts "But concerning brotherly love....", introducing a new subject; vv. 9-12 are a different topic.
Verse 13 starts "But I do not want you to be ignorant....", introducing another subject; vv. 13-18 are a literary unit.
Chapter 5, verse 1 starts, "But concerning the times....", introducing another subject; vv. 1-11 are a literary unit.
Thus, the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5 are different subjects. It is 5:1-11 which is parallel with the Olivet Discourse; 4:13-18 do not appear in the Olivet Discourse at all.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostNo. They argue "This generation" designates it as their generation, therefore Matthew 24:30-31 (obviously his return) can't possibly be his return, because that would mean Jesus was wrong, therefore it has to instead be a symbolic meaning of the 70 AD war instead.
And I'm still not sure on how FUTURISTS think all those things happened in a generation given that futurists claim they haven't happened yet and Jesus's speech given to a bunch of random peasants 2000 years ago was actually meant for an audience x thousand years into the future."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostThat's not quite how I remember it. Jesus coming with the clouds = judgement = 70AD war and destruction of Jerusalem.
And I'm still not sure on how FUTURISTS think all those things happened in a generation given that futurists claim they haven't happened yet and Jesus's speech given to a bunch of random peasants 2000 years ago was actually meant for an audience x thousand years into the future.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostThat's not quite how I remember it. Jesus coming with the clouds = judgement = 70AD war and destruction of Jerusalem.
And I'm still not sure on how FUTURISTS think all those things happened in a generation given that futurists claim they haven't happened yet and Jesus's speech given to a bunch of random peasants 2000 years ago was actually meant for an audience x thousand years into the future.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostTaken to its logical end, what you just said would mean that nothing Jesus said should matter to us now."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostIn all honesty, "coming in the clouds" as meaning judgement can be a futurist stance. The disagreement is what the judgement is. From a futurist stance, Matthew 24:30-31 is the rapture, and the rapture happens after the tribulation (contrary to what pre-trib futurists believe) but before God's wrath (not detailed in the OD), which is his direct judgement on the earth in the end times. The book of Rev adds the detail. Chap. 6 is the tribulation. Chap. 7 is the rapture. Chap. 8-9 is God's wrath where God literally unleashes the supernatural hounds on earth to torment and kill mankind. So, yeah, "coming in the clouds" could definitely be interpreted as judgement (Rev 6:16-17), just that the details aren't the same."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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