Sincere questions for atheists...

[Columba]

I know, I know, you've seen all the threads in the world that include the words "sincere questions for atheists". Let me say right up front that I am not a Bible thumping Protestant. I am not going to bash you over the head with my Bible.

I really want to understand you guys. I'm not a scholar so some things that you say may be over my head and please let me know if they are.

But let's put all "theology" aside for the moment. ( I know that's hard.)


If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?


Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?


Thanks for any responses. I hope for a very good dialogue here and I hope for true friendship with you on a non-judgemental basis. Let me say again that I am not a Bible Thumper. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I am not trying to convert anyone. In fact, that's pretty much against what we teach. I'm
trying to figure out what exactly it is that atheists object to in true Christianity? My suspicion is that atheists are suspicious of the Protestant version and I don't blame them...I would be too.

Love to all,
Columba

[Rationalist]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

Sure. But there are quite a few of those around.

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Atheists aren't looking for salvation. First you'd have to explain why any salvation was necessary in the first place, and make them believe it. That would be really hard because there's no evidence for this.

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

Well, first you'd have to convince them that hell actually existed (which would be really really hard). Then you'd have to provide some reason why your hell existed, and other religions versions didn't.

By far the most difficult part of all of this is explaining why God would need such a place. Either he made some mistakes in building his creation where he'd need to fix it after the fact, or hell itself is part of his plan, which would not make him such a nice guy.

But "then", you'd have to explain how any person could commit any crime or infraction which would merit an eternity of pain. That would be very very difficult indeed to convince anybody of who was not already a Christian.

From an outsider point of view, the concept of hell does not really make much sense, unless of course it is an idea specifically designed to promote belief in a religion out of fear.

I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is that atheists object to in true Christianity?

I don't speak for everybody, but I don't object to any religion at all. I think Christians and Chistianity are by and large pretty decent, except when they lead to some sort of crazy nonsense (which really isn't too often).

I just don't personally believe it.

My suspicion is that atheists are suspicious of the Protestant version and I don't blame them...I would be too.

Some religious ideas are more difficult to believe than others. That's true.

[Columba]

First, thank you so much for responding. I am understanding you guys a little better now.

So the main issue is 'hell'? In E. Orthodoxy it is taught that this is basically not created for human beings but for the Devil (considred a real personage) and his followers. His followers would include,those who knowingly led people into error, demons and so forth.

I am beginning to understand that in the atheist world view, there is nothing "spiritual" at all, much less a Christian landscape. Do I have this right?

[Christy]

I am not an atheist, but too most atheists I think that is true. It is called materialism, because they believe the material world is all there is. There are spirutual people that do not believe in a supreme being that created the universe also. Lots of Buddhists, I think are atheists, in that they don't believe that their is a god that created the earth.

[Christy]

Sorry for all of the spelling errors in that post.

[Columba]

I am not an atheist, but too most atheists I think that is true. It is called materialism, because they believe the material world is all there is. There are spirutual people that do not believe in a supreme being that created the universe also. Lots of Buddhists, I think are atheists, in that they don't believe that their is a god that created the earth.

Thank you very much Christy, for responding. I agree with you. The nihilism and the materialism is what is our barrier to mutual understanding, I believe. I don't think that atheists are "damned to hell". Quite the contrary. I think almost all of them are given "free passes" because the Christian gospel was misrepresented to them by Protestants and therefore, they were prevented from coming to belief in Christ.

[Columba]

Maybe I should rephrase for better understanding:

1. What are atheists looking for? Anything?

2. What do atheists hope for? anythying?

3. What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

Please help me understand you???
Love,
columba

[Minnesota]

So the main issue is 'hell'?

Not at all. Those I've talked to pretty much feel that the whole Christian package and far too many of its parts are to absurd to believe. May as well try convincing them that Grimm's Fairy Tales holds some kind of transcendental truths.

1. What are atheists looking for? Anything?

2. What do atheists hope for? anything?

3. What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

1. If they are looking for anything it has nothing to do with a postulated god.

2. If they are hoping for anything it has nothing to do with a postulated god.

3. Probably one that is rationally sound and doesn't rely on the supernatural.

[Columba]

Not at all. Those I've talked to pretty much feel that the whole Christian package and far too many of its parts are to absurd to believe. May as well try convincing them that Grimm's Fairy Tales holds some kind of transcendental truths.



1. If they are looking for anything it has nothing to do with a postulated god.

2. If they are hoping for anything it has nothing to do with a postulated god.

3. Probably one that is rationally sound and doesn't rely on the supernatural.

I think I understand. Thanks for responding.

I think then we are dealing with just a simple absence o fbelief at all, in addition to what is considered "absurdities" that lie within Chrisitanity???

[James]

I think then we are dealing with just a simple absence o fbelief at all, in addition to what is considered "absurdities" that lie within Chrisitanity???

That's one good way of putting it, I'd say.

[Archimedes]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

I'd probably take it more seriously at least. Anyway I think your questions are poorly formulated because the willlingness to "look at" something does not really make that something better; people tend to have morbid curiosity for outlandish things.

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Not really. That plan of salvation would have to make more sense than "don't believe at all".

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

Every religion advertises itself as the best thing since sliced bread. Only after I've heard their claims am I able to evaluate whether it really allows for prefect understanding or other such benefits. The free pass from Hell is something I really don't care about though, because quite frankly I just think it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to incoherencies of religious worldviews.

(I'm probably not going to follow the thread beyond this post.)

[Anitra]

This is presumptuous of me, because I am not an atheist. On the other hand, a number of people call me an atheist, including a couple of atheists, so maybe I qualify to answer after all. :-)

From talking with a great number of people, I would say that there is a set of axioms that all of us, theists and atheist, operate on -- a minimum number of axioms required to function -- and atheism just stick to those, while theism takes a leap of faith to one or more additional ones. The minimum axiom set works just fine, anyone can build a consistent world view and a consistent ethics on it, live a meaningful life with a sense of purpose, have loving relationships, and enjoy life. Atheism is only an absence of an extra set of assumptions. It is an absence of belief.

There are atheists who feel very strongly about the intellectual integrity of this worldview. Only about 30% of all theists and all atheists seem to be very analytical or be able to define critical thinking skills enough to find them if they get lost in the laundry, but among both theists and atheists who are analytical and do a lot of critical thinking, we get hot about our worldviews. Accurate information, after all, is a survival value. It isn't only our own information that affects our survival, but also the information that other people are acting on. If any of us feel that others are acting on bad information, we feel a natural desire to correct them. And if any of us feel that other people are deliberately trying to sell us bad information, to get us to deny what we know to be the truth, we naturally feel upset.

Most people feel secure enough that we can let other people have a different worldview as long as they don't try to make us believe it or try to make us act on it, as in basing law and public policy on it. But the way that some theists set in on atheists trying to change their worldview, and the way that some what I call "fundamatheists" set in on theists trying to change their worldview, could fairly well tick off even Gandhi.

Besides simple atheists who just don't accept the extra assumptions of theism, or who once accepted them but then gave them up, there are also atheists who consider theism, especially the more agressive versions, to be an active harm in the world, and spend a great deal of energy arguing against it.

Atheism is not itself a belief system, or an ideology. But there are ideologues, whom I call "fundamatheists." "Ideology" can just mean a theoretical system, a structure of ideas, and that can be a good thing. But there are streamlined, aggressive ideologies that are generally bad things. The basic structure of such an ideology is to identify a Great Evil that menaces civilization; a group (Them) that is responsible for promoting the Great Evil; a Great Good necessary to counter the Great Evil; and a group (Us) responsible for promoting the Great Good. To fundamentalist Christians, secularism is the Great Evil at the root of all other evils. To fundamatheists, religion is the Great Evil at the root of all other evils. It would be very nice, I sometimes think, to put them all on an island somewhere, together, where they would be very very happy being able to be angry all the time. :-D

Most atheists, however, are not rejecting your religion, or mine, they simply feel no need for it. I feel no need, myself, to convert them. As I see it, God has gone to great lengths to provide a universe in which free will is possible, in which one can explain the universe and live a good life and experience love and never choose to relate to God at all, and relationship with God is a truly free choice. God seems to prize the independence of the soul above all other things. I can do no less. It is important to me that everyone discover their own view of God, the Universe, and Everything. I trust that we all live in one reality. I do not learn much from trying to convince other people of how I see it, but I do learn a lot by listening to how they see it.

When I listen to what people experience, rather than how they describe it, I find a lot more similarity between all kinds of people. There is a level of ecstatic esperience, in which one is wholly alive and has a great feeling of "all is one." Having that experience makes a change in how one relates to others, and generally instills a higher level of ethics. It creates 'the fruit of the spirit' as described in Galatians 5.

I think we are all experiencing the same thing. I think that for any few ounces of gray matter to say we have the one true understanding of what we are experiencing, the one true name for it, the one true model for it, is just hilarious. Whatever model works for you, use it. Don't prioritize it over the spirit of the experience. Don't let it block seeing the same spirit in someone who uses a different model.

I love my relationship with God and the effect it has in my life. But I see the same effects, the same spirit, in the lives of Buddhists and Muslims and pagans and atheists and all sorts of other people. I am not going to say that they have to accept my model of reality before I will recognize their spirit.

God's just bigger than we all are.

[Rationalist]

1. What are atheists looking for? Anything?

Love, friendship, community, financial and presonal security, success in a worthy goal, good health, knowledge, a good family, and maybe leaving the world a little better than how they found it. Like everyone, people who don't believe in God have a variety of personal interests and a variety of personal philosophies.

Usually the majority of people who don't believe in God really don't spend much time thinking about it. There are a number of over zealous anti-religious extremists, but the average non-believer is just an ordinary person.

To get an idea of what I mean.. think about it this way. You probably don't believe in fairies. How much time do you spend each day thinking about fairies, what they might be doing, whether they might exist or not, and what not believing in them might mean.

Probably not much.

2. What do atheists hope for? anythying?

They hope for any number of things. But they are probably a little more prosaic when to what they hope for compared to theists.

Atheists usually prefer to accept life as it is, for better or worse. They feel no need to believe things for which there is no evidence simply to make themselves feel better about the world.

3. What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

Ideally no religion at all I would expect, but realistically one which is more or less benign.

[Socrates]

I love my relationship with God

Which "God"? Certainly not Jesus Christ, who said:

Scripture Verse:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and the effect it has in my life. But I see the same effects, the same spirit, in the lives of Buddhists and Muslims and pagans and atheists and all sorts of other people. I am not going to say that they have to accept my model of reality before I will recognize their spirit.

I already recognize their spirit, because Jesus' beloved disciple identified it.

Scripture Verse:

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist— he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

God's just bigger than we all are.

Typical contentless slogan from liberal heretics. I have no interest in slogans, but only in the God revealed in the true Jesus of the Bible.

[Anitra]

We have a different understanding of what Jesus taught.