Sincere questions for atheists...

[Seasanctuary]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

Yes, absolutely.

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Yes.

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

I don't want a "free pass" out of hell. I just want justice to be equitable instead of infinite punishment for ignorance.

What are atheists looking for? Anything?

Well, I am looking for truth, beauty, and occupation. I don't speak for everyone else though.

What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

A religion without the extreme injustice I see integrated into the afterlife and salvation doctrines most commonly seen where I live.

I'd be very happy to worship a God I believed was actually good and kind and wise and just.

It's the arbitrary, powerful, maniacal ones that creep me out.

[Seasanctuary]

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[Seasanctuary]

Typical contentless slogan from liberal heretics. I have no interest in slogans, but only in the God revealed in the true Jesus of the Bible.

Does God give you extra thornless rosebushes at your future Heavenly mansion of gold when you make postings like this?

[BeHereNow]

Hello, Columba. I believe this is the first time I've seen you here.

I do not pretend to speak for all atheists, as we each have our motives. Further, I'm not sure if I'm an atheist or not - my beliefs have yet to be coined, at least to my knowledge. But not a theist, not a believer of any religion, not agnostic, so...

Anyway, I'll respond to your first post. The second list seemed a bit too broad to answer.

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

If by "look at it", you mean "consider it", then yes. I try to draw out whatever I can from anyone's set of moral conduct, whether they are Southern Baptists, Zen Buddhists, or whatever else. As far as adopting someone else's pre-fab beliefs entirely, not even a snowball's chance.

I'll note that the best marketing one could possibly do is personal exhibition. If I receive peace from a person, I'm immediately interested in what they believe and live by.

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Salvation is subjective. Some believe we need salvation from sins, others like myself believe we need salvation from selfish desires. I guess you'd have to clarify what you mean by salvation, and convince me that I need it.

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

I'm confused. What if I already have a perfect understanding from God? And why would I want to believe in hell or Satan?

I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is that atheists object to in true Christianity?

We can start with the idea of "true Christianity". Does it exist, objectively?

[BeHereNow]

Typical contentless slogan from liberal heretics. I have no interest in slogans, but only in the God revealed in the true Jesus of the Bible.

Not interested in slogans, eh? Is that why any time another Christian disagrees with you, they are "liberal heretics", "WFJs", or whatever other vituperative slogan you can think of?

What a hypocrite.

[Kulindrichnus]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

No, of course not, none of this. I'm not an atheist because I have a problem with Protestants or Christians or Amun or Old Father Raven or religions in general, I am an atheist because I have a problem with the supernatural in its' entirety. There is simply no evidence nor need for any of it- Nessie, will o' the wisp, Count Dracula, tarot cards and Yahweh are all on the same footing for me.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. You may be approaching the issue more pleasantly than the likes of Socrates, but at the end of the day you are approaching it in exactly the same way. You think you have some answers, and are trying to tell people they're the right ones (or worth consideration at least). But that's not the way to approach (at least anti-supernaturalist) atheism- we're skeptical that there's any answers to be had, not skeptical about your or anyone else's proffessed set of them. Offering alternatives to someone else's alternatives for the nonexistant is irrelevant and cuts no ice. None of it is worth considering.

To stand a chance you'd have to make a case of need for the supernatural based on physical evidence, which absolutely no supernaturalist has ever been able to do. Then you'd need to be a veritable theological polymath and trawl through the pros and cons of absolutely every religion and private personal belief ever held throughout time in order to make a case based on evidence that the deity you are offering best fits the physical evidence discussed before. And even at that point, if the deity came out as both omnipotent and omnisicient (which I suggest you would say it will), I would happily inform you that I am morally opposed to it as there is no way of putting any checks or balances- imposing a duty of care- on it. It is for that reason that I also find your first question- the implication that a moral code can come from so unbalanced an entity, let alone the suggestion that such a thing is the only source of good morals- absurd and offensive.

That has probably not helped you much. Sorry.

K

[Chuck Lee]

I'm willing to look at any religious outlook. I'm not concerned so much about a "friendly" message, just a consistent one. It's the logical contradictions that hurt the outlook in my eyes.

For example, I once encountered a Christian who claimed that god is fully loving. He also believed in Hell, and that non-believers (i.e. the majority of people on the planet) ended up there, suffering painfully for eternally. I considered it a logical contradiction that God would both be fully loving and would allow human souls to suffer eternally. Instead of trying to resolve the contradiction, the Christian in question proceeded to bring out lots of scripture and his interpretations of it, in order to back up both his positions. I wasn't able to make him realize that he was basically trying to establish that the Bible itself was logically contradictory. However, this only makes me discount his personal outlook on Christianity, and not Christianity in general (I can come up with slightly different interpretations of those scriptural passages, as do many Christians).

Of course finding a religion that is not logically contradictory isn't enough to get me to believe in it, but at least it becomes a more distinct possibility for me to consider. I'm simply unable to latch on to a belief in supernatural phenomena without experiencing supernatural phenomena myself. But as long as it's logically consistent I don't discount it; I simply remain open minded on the possibility.

[Columba]

First, I'd like to thank the Academy... :)
Just kidding...I do want to thank everyone here...

I want to say that these responses have really helped me grow as a person because:
I see where I have failed to view your beliefs (or lack of them) through the proper lens. I will get that log out of my eye now! LOL

I approached the conversation with several assumptions I should not make...I will try very hard to correct this in myself as this is a terrible flaw...but I am also a terrible sinner...
If I gave offense to anyone I am deeply sorry.... I do intend to take all of your ideas into account in any future conversations. I really appreciate what you have done for me here! Thank you!

[seer]

Atheists aren't looking for salvation. First you'd have to explain why any salvation was necessary in the first place, and make them believe it. That would be really hard because there's no evidence for this.

This is interesting Rationalist. We have no control over our beliefs. I could no more not believe in God at this moment than you could believe in God. Evidence does not matter because we have no ability to interpert that evidence - our natural processes do that for us. So I have no control over my belief in God just as you have no control over your disbelief.

[rdalin]

Maybe I should rephrase for better understanding:

1. What are atheists looking for? Anything?

2. What do atheists hope for? anythying?

3. What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

Please help me understand you???
Love,
columba

Right off, referring to "atheists" in the sense of a monolithic group, as you are doing here, is not productive. Atheists have only one thing in common: disbelief in, or belief that there is no, god. That's it.

So, speaking only for myself:

1) I'm not even sure what this question means, frankly, but I'm looking for a happy, productive life. I'm also looking for a job right now, since I was laid off a few weeks ago. And finally, I'm looking for enough willpower to lose some weight.
2) I hope for happiness and good health for myself and my family. I hope to enjoy myself as much as I can. I hope to make a difference in the world, even if it's only a small one. I hope my children are happy, and I hope my grandchildren grow into into good people. I hope my younger son will marry one of these days so I can have even more grandchildren. And so on.
3) I equate religion with superstition. There is no perfect religion, since religion by definition (my definition, that is) is inherently imperfect.

[Gilgaron]

I know, I know, you've seen all the threads in the world that include the words "sincere questions for atheists". Let me say right up front that I am not a Bible thumping Protestant. I am not going to bash you over the head with my Bible.

I didn't read the rest of the thread so you'll get a clean response from me. Hopefully it will be worthwhile for you.

I really want to understand you guys. I'm not a scholar so some things that you say may be over my head and please let me know if they are.

But let's put all "theology" aside for the moment. ( I know that's hard.)

We all have our ignorances, that's what dialog is for. Looking ahead, though, it will be hard to put aside all theology, but I'll try.

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

Probably. My moral conduct is largely in-line with Christian morality, anyway, and the various idealogies of such punishment seem strange and ineffectual as far as any higher purpose is concerned.

Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Certainly evidential claims will carry more merit with most people than faith alone.

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

Despite being an agnostic atheist (where exactly I fall seems to vary with mood...) I've always found theology and various religions interesting. Opening a dialog with whatever god(s) exist would be interesting. One qualm I have with Christianity, though, is that it would seem to be passing off the consequences of my own actions onto Jesus instead of accepting them myself. This strikes me as a bit dishonest if not dishonorable. I wouldn't have a clear conscience having a savior die for my sins (although acknowledging sin against a God would be begging the question, I usually substitute my personal failings in for sin during discussions about it).

Thanks for any responses. I hope for a very good dialogue here and I hope for true friendship with you on a non-judgemental basis. Let me say again that I am not a Bible Thumper. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I am not trying to convert anyone. In fact, that's pretty much against what we teach. I'm
trying to figure out what exactly it is that atheists object to in true Christianity? My suspicion is that atheists are suspicious of the Protestant version and I don't blame them...I would be too.

Love to all,
Columba

I've heard of Eastern Orthodox but don't really know much about it, I look forward to discussions regarding it. If you'd like to post a rundown in Comparative Religion, I'm sure people would find it enjoyable. For example, you could compare and contrast it to Catholicism and Protestantism.

[Rationalist]

This is interesting Rationalist. We have no control over our beliefs. I could no more not believe in God at this moment than you could believe in God. Evidence does not matter because we have no ability to interpert that evidence - our natural processes do that for us. So I have no control over my belief in God just as you have no control over your disbelief.

Yadda yadda yadda. Look seer.. just because you don't understand how thought, choice, and free will arise from natural processes doesn't mean that they don't. Making any number of straw men based statements doesn't help either.

Thought and choice is not magic my friend. It's your brain doing what it does.

[LGM]

Maybe I should rephrase for better understanding:

1. What are atheists looking for? Anything?

I'm looking for a sunny, 40 degree day to ski the back bowls of Vail.
I'm looking for a spectacular sunrise I can photograph from the top of an Adirondack high peak.
I'm looking for the perfect University for my son to attend so he can pursue a degree in Biology.
I'm always looking for my next boat.
I'm looking for ways to make my wife and children happy and succesful.
I'm looking for the Knicks to win another championship before I die
I'm looking to comfortably retire by 55 and pursue all my varied interests.
I'm looking for my car keys...

2. What do atheists hope for? anythying?

I hope to find all those things I'm looking for above.

3. What do atheists thnk would make the perfect "religion"?

Scientific Pantheism.

Please help me understand you???
Love,
columba

Does that help?

LGM
...what are you looking for?...other than the satisfied feeling that your religion is the True(tm) Christianity and evangelical protestants are a bunch of hacks?...

[Bob the Builder]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?


Also, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant, presented you with a plan of salvation that made more sense than "just believe on faith alone" would you be willing to look at that?

Third, if a Christian, who is non-Protestant (can you tell I am not a Protestant?) presented you with a belief system that allowed for perfect understanding from God, that is to say, allowances for human failings which would include a "free pass" out of hell, would you be willing to look at that?

To be honest, no I wouldn't look for the simple reason that I don't believe God, heaven or hell exist. So unless you could give me some real evidence that I am wrong, these ideas are no different from what I was told at school.

Hope this helps!

[Ben Franklin]

If a Christian who is non-Protestant presented you with a code of moral conduct that did NOT include damning people to hell, would you be more willing to look at it?

Even if you take out damnation, you still keep the deity, so it's not going to be accepted by atheists, I think.