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Vaccines, a Faustian bargain?

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  • Vaccines, a Faustian bargain?

    There are a few vaccine candidates, it seems University of Pittsburgh seems to have one ready to go. They based their work on earlier work on similar viruses.

    But few vaccines roll out with problems. The anti vaxxers are a real phenomenon, and include many different reasons to justify their position. We demand perfection from medicine, but is that really possible? The regulations which have been put into place were not put there out of malice or some desire for authoritarian control.

    Should we trial them overseas or in the US?

  • #2
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    There are a few vaccine candidates, it seems University of Pittsburgh seems to have one ready to go. They based their work on earlier work on similar viruses.
    As I understand it, it's "ready to go" in the sense of being ready for human trials, having shown promise in rodent trials. It might possibly -- again, as I understood the guy when interviewed -- be ready for use by Fall, assuming the trials go well. That's a while, but much better than 12-18 months.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #3
      I do not think the vaccine development will have an impact on the present coronavirus outbreak except in regions that are isolated and not yet have the coronavirus. The development of vaccines are more effective as preventive before the virus moves into the population. If this variation of the coronavirus turns into a seasonal cyclic virus than the progressive development of vaccines based on the evolving variations of the coronavirus like is being done annually with the flu.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I do not think the vaccine development will have an impact on the present coronavirus outbreak except in regions that are isolated and not yet have the coronavirus. The development of vaccines are more effective as preventive before the virus moves into the population. If this variation of the coronavirus turns into a seasonal cyclic virus than the progressive development of vaccines based on the evolving variations of the coronavirus like is being done annually with the flu.
        But consider the possibility that a vaccine is easily manufactured (a major hurdle for any vaccine). If the preliminary studies go well for one of them, what will the wider studies look like? I doubt they will look at all like a conventional study, I am sure that they will be tested through mass vaccination programs in other countries.

        Polio vaccine was accepted on the data from Soviet Union and Czechoslavakia, which used the vaccine across the population before it was thoroughly tested.

        We live in a world where elected politicians have more sway over pharmaceutical protocols than medical practitioners and public health professionals. (chloroquine)
        Last edited by simplicio; 04-05-2020, 07:08 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          But consider the possibility that a vaccine is easily manufactured (a major hurdle for any vaccine). If the preliminary studies go well for one of them, what will the wider studies look like? I doubt they will look at all like a conventional study, I am sure that they will be tested through mass vaccination programs in other countries.

          Polio vaccine was accepted on the data from Soviet Union and Czechoslavakia, which used the vaccine across the population before it was thoroughly tested.

          We live in a world where elected politicians have more sway over pharmaceutical protocols than medical practitioners and public health professionals. (chloroquine)
          Is this an allusion to Bad Orange Man?

          If so, is there some reason you believe he pulled the HCQ idea out of his ample hindparts, as opposed to being influenced by "medical professionals" such as Dr. Oz, Dr. Stephen Smith, the many doctors using HCQ in their practices, the many front-line doctors taking HCQ themselves prophylactically, etc.?
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Is this an allusion to Bad Orange Man?

            If so, is there some reason you believe he pulled the HCQ idea out of his ample hindparts, as opposed to being influenced by "medical professionals" such as Dr. Oz, Dr. Stephen Smith, the many doctors using HCQ in their practices, the many front-line doctors taking HCQ themselves prophylactically, etc.?
            Given the history of ascertaining the efficacy of treatment or protocols, is it the role of politicians to push one set of treatments over another? We wax and wane on demanding evidence of a treatment, pushing for the FDA to tighten or relax protocols for deciding on the release of a drug.

            The front line doctors are acting out of fear. Our health system can produce masks and tests for the elites, but cannot direct those same resources towards those battling the disease. The many front line doctors who are taking HCQ themselves are often the ones who are told not to wear masks, have one mask to last several days (and for dozens of different patients).

            We have a health system of a third world country today.

            Comment


            • #7
              There is a report that a mutation has taken root in India with a different mode of attaching to cells, making at least some of the vaccines ineffective.https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...evelop-vaccine

              Interesting discussion for the evolution/creationist discussions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                There are a few vaccine candidates, it seems University of Pittsburgh seems to have one ready to go. They based their work on earlier work on similar viruses.

                But few vaccines roll out with problems. The anti vaxxers are a real phenomenon, and include many different reasons to justify their position. We demand perfection from medicine, but is that really possible? The regulations which have been put into place were not put there out of malice or some desire for authoritarian control.

                Should we trial them overseas or in the US?
                Like in the H1N1 virus pandemic of 2008-9 the vaccine or vaccines will likely be available near the fime the COVAG 19 begins to pass as all virus pandemics do in the past.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Like in the H1N1 virus pandemic of 2008-9 the vaccine or vaccines will likely be available near the fime the COVAG 19 begins to pass as all virus pandemics do in the past.
                  If any of the early trials pan out and production is possible, they will jump to testing using almost unprecedented large trials. Many countries do not have a robust health care system to handle this crisis.

                  I think many doctors and nurses here will demand it, they are that desperate.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                    There is a report that a mutation has taken root in India with a different mode of attaching to cells, making at least some of the vaccines ineffective.https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...evelop-vaccine

                    Interesting discussion for the evolution/creationist discussions.
                    How does this influence the evolution/creation debate.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      How does this influence the evolution/creation debate.
                      The debates often revolve around the concept of mutations. If the story is true (of a mutant form of CoV-2 spreading in India) it will be a real time example of the molecular structure of DNA being fluid, not static.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        The debates often revolve around the concept of mutations. If the story is true (of a mutant form of CoV-2 spreading in India) it will be a real time example of the molecular structure of DNA being fluid, not static.
                        In your prior post, it sounds as though the mutation involves the protein spikes on the surface of the virus, not the DNA contents. Can you clear that up?

                        FTR, I'm not interested in the creation/evolution aspect, just this technicality.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          In your prior post, it sounds as though the mutation involves the protein spikes on the surface of the virus, not the DNA contents. Can you clear that up?

                          FTR, I'm not interested in the creation/evolution aspect, just this technicality.
                          I don't understand it enough to clear it up.

                          https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...evelop-vaccine

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            I don't understand it enough to clear it up.

                            https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...evelop-vaccine
                            It is in the spike protein as NR said. It also says that the change could make it LESS able to bind with the ACE2 receptor in the lungs making it less infectious.

                            From what I understand, coronaviruses mutate over time. Flus and Colds mutate quickly and means it can reinfect you if it changes enough that your antibodies can't attach to the new strain, and is why a new flu vaccine is needed each year.

                            From what I have read, they say that SARS-COV-2 mutates slowly, and the mutations are small enough that a vaccine should work on all of the strains. I think this paper is warning that the mutation could happen at any time that could make that moot and mean that it could make a vaccine harder to make.

                            I don't understand why it takes so long to come up with a vaccine though. We come up with a new flu vaccine every year and from what I understand this vaccine would be made in a similar fashion with just different dead virus particles (COVID instead of Flu) - so it seems to me that most of the work is already done. I do know it takes time to manufacture because they have to grow the virus in eggs first.

                            Here is an overview of how vaccines are made.

                            https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/how-fluvaccine-made.htm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not all vaccines work out well.

                              The SARS vaccine -- looked good until animals were exposed to wild coronavirus.

                              They suffered hyper-immune response -- a magnification of the sickness instead of immunity.

                              Title: Immunization with SARS Coronavirus Vaccines Leads to Pulmonary Immunopathology on Challenge with the SARS Virus
                              Tseng CT, Strana E. , et al.
                              Published: April 20, 2012
                              https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
                              [cite]
                              Conclusions:
                              These SARS-CoV vaccines all induced antibody and protection against infection with SARS-CoV. However, challenge of mice given any of the vaccines led to occurrence of Th2-type immunopathology suggesting hypersensitivity to SARS-CoV components was induced. Caution in proceeding to application of a SARS-CoV vaccine in humans is indicated.
                              [/cite]

                              >Immunization with SARS Coronavirus Vaccines Leads to Pulmonary Immunopathology on Challenge with the SARS Virus

                              Source: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421&type=printable


                              This combined experience provides concern for trials withSARS-CoV vaccines in humans. Clinical trials with SARS coronavirus vaccines have been conducted and reported to induce antibody responses and to be ‘‘safe’’ [29,30]. However, the evidence for safety is for a short period of observation. The concern arising from the present report is for an immunopatho-logic reaction occurring among vaccinated individuals on exposure to infectious SARS-CoV, the basis for developing a vaccine for SARS. Additional safety concerns relate to effectiveness and safety against antigenic variants of SARS-CoV and for safety of vaccinated persons exposed to other coronaviruses, particularly those of the type 2 group. Our study with a VLP SARS vaccine contained the N protein of mouse hepatitis virus and Bolles, et al.,reported the immunopathology in mice occurs for heterologous Gp2b CoV vaccines after challenge [25]. This concern emanates from the proposal that the N protein may be the dominant antigen provoking the immunopathologic reaction. Because of well documented severity of the respiratory disease among infants given an inactivated RSV vaccine and subsequently infected with RSV that is considered to be attributable to a Th2-type immunopathologic reaction and a large number of studies in the Balb/c mouse model that have described and elucidated many components of the immunopathologic reaction to RSV vaccines, the similarity to the SARS-CoV vaccine evaluations in Balb/c mice supports caution for clinical vaccine trials with SARS-CoV vaccines in humans.

                              © Copyright Original Source

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