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  • #61
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Indeed, that's an important observation. It was much more common in the Western world pre-1980s.

    Apart from Australia, the group today that I most associate with a socially conservative & economically left position is Roman Catholics. Catholics don't seem to have bought much into the US Evangelical love of right-wing economics (aka selfishness and greed ).
    Someone has never visited a Catholic Church, in Europe.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
      Just admit you were wrong rather than moving the goalposts.
      Exactly. Is that so hard?
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
        Maybe it’s because the Greens became a significant minor party during the early 2000s and were vital for labor during the Rudd Gillard Rudd era.
        I tend to vote Green here, so I'm pleased to hear they've had an impact in Australia.

        I would hazard to guess that perhaps, even if you don't necessarily like their policies, that having more parties in your political spectrum helps improve the functioning of the democracy and of the two main parties? The introduction of more parties in NZ certainly brought a landscape change in the way politics here was done.

        It’s currently our Conservative party that’s extended our stimulus payments to include New Zealanders in Australia too.
        I don't think that made the headlines here.

        Usually the headlines here about Australia are about the Australian government doing something mean to New Zealanders living in Australia (e.g. denying benefits, deporting them, sending criminals here, removing them from parliament etc), and our government responding with "well we're disappointed, and we asked them 3 times nicely not to do that but they did it anyway, but we won't be responding in kind by doing the same things to Australians living here". There doesn't seem to be quite the same assumption in Australia that the two nations are basically one citizenry as there is here.

        Though, IMO, in general NZ is too quick to confer full benefits and rights to foreigners in general who happen to be in our country. e.g. I personally don't think non-citizens (except Australians maybe) should be allowed to vote here, as in my observation their loyalty is often to their home country which can be a country fairly hostile to NZ's interests (e.g. China). Giving tax-payer funded healthcare to non-tax-paying tourists is also a bit questionable.

        I guess when progressive positions become the norm they become the conservative position so young progressives become old conservatives.
        Yeah the way I tend to think about it is that conservatives tend to like to preserve the way society was in their youth. Progressives like to try and improve on it. So whenever progressives are successful, the next generation of conservatives defends those changes as the conservative status quo.

        In this way we see societies shift. So, e.g. the conservatives of a couple of hundred years ago in the US defended slavery (to the point of fighting to the death to keep it!), because that's the system they grew up with. Whereas (hopefully!) no US conservative on this forum would seriously advocate for it today, because that's not the system they grew up with.

        The current conservative position in the US has been extinct for at least half a century here.
        I'm not sure the current US conservative position was historically ever a thing here. NZ was always very liberal from the beginning. And the dominant religious tradition was Anglicanism which was both very strong on the social gospel (helping the poor etc) and on fairness and liberal social values. Probably wasn't a coincidence we were the first country to let women vote, the first country to have the government provide healthcare for all citizens etc. Though certainly on some issues in comparison to today you could certainly say NZ had social values in the pre-1980s period that would be classed as 'conservative' if someone were to hold them today.

        The western world has moved to a social democracy in that time while it seems the US is still stuck in the capitalist v socialist argument.
        Indeed. Social democracy seems to have clearly proved itself the best system and nearly all Western countries have drifted in that direction now. Those who have gone the fatherest in that direction, like the Scandinavians, seem to have benefited the most.

        Though in the 1980s there was such a strong push in the West away from social democracy and toward low-tax low-regulation free-market under-funding-of-the-welfare-state stripping-back-of-worker's-rights dismantling-of-unions (aka 'neo-liberalism', Reaganomics / Thatcherism / Fraser+Hawke etc) that much of the West still seems to be recovering from that rather extreme experimentation with right-wing economics, and seems to be gradually rebuilding their welfare states and drifting back toward a more social democracy. Though I guess few even on the left would want to bring back quite the level of big-government controlled-economies that existed pre-80s.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Someone has never visited a Catholic Church, in Europe.
          Of course I have. But I take your point that the way that Roman Catholic citizens tend to vote and the way the Roman Catholic Church organisation tends to act aren't very well aligned!

          Don't get me wrong, I think the RCC is one of the worst organisations on the planet (along with groups like ISIS, the NRA, the mafia, the US Republican party etc). A semi-positive comment about how its members tend to vote politically certainly isn't an endorsement of the organisation.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Of course I have. But I take your point that the way that Roman Catholic citizens tend to vote and the way the Roman Catholic Church organisation tends to act aren't very well aligned!

            Don't get me wrong, I think the RCC is one of the worst organisations on the planet (along with groups like ISIS, the NRA, the mafia, the US Republican party etc). A semi-positive comment about how its members tend to vote politically certainly isn't an endorsement of the organisation.
            Some of the most conservative people I know are pro life Roman Catholics, but you’re welcome to believe whatever you like. Grouping the NRA and republicans with ISIS and the mob tells us how seriously we should take your opinion.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
              I think the RCC is one of the worst organisations on the planet (along with groups like ISIS, the NRA, the mafia, the US Republican party etc).
              That right there is some prime trolling!
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                I thought I had heard 60 tonnes. It might have been my hearing, but I am also seeing conflicting numbers.

                Other than that, you're a twit.
                It was 16 tons, and most of it was PPE, and only 1100 masks. And it was consigned the first week of February, when many assumed the epidemic was a Chinese thing, and before the death toll exceeded the Chinese deaths from SARS.

                It is a sad commentary when it is Christians advocating some "every man for himself", in some Darwinian survival of the fittest. A pandemic needs international cooperation, shifting resources to where they are needed, the high demand are not

                Canada is now importing masks and other equipment from China.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Should we stop all exports of PPE to Canada until we stock our own hospitals?

                  Should we stop all exports to Latin America?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    That right there is some prime trolling!
                    Is it?

                    It is hardly the first time I've heard that sentiment, in fact I would say it is a commonly held view among a certain segment of atheists and evangelicals. But I have never seen an evangelical refer to it in terms of trolling.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      Is it?

                      It is hardly the first time I've heard that sentiment, in fact I would say it is a commonly held view among a certain segment of atheists and evangelicals. But I have never seen an evangelical refer to it in terms of trolling.
                      It's just a run of the mill example from MM of the common ignorance I see among conservatives on this site regarding common viewpoints among liberals.

                      And then they get offended when I point out how ignorant they are of common viewpoints within their country.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post

                        It is a sad commentary when it is Christians advocating some "every man for himself", in some Darwinian survival of the fittest.
                        I Timothy 5:8, no matter how you seek to twist it.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          You're a true "skolar".

                          "I do my resurch on Google!"
                          ...which is why he can tell the difference between an ice-cap and a desert.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            So you stated something as fact when it isn't, and then when called on it, falsely claimed that it was the prevailing view among US citizens when it isn't
                            The "prevailing" view? Where did Starlight claim that?

                            (Answer: he didn't. MM doesn't seem to know the difference between "common" and "prevailing".)
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              I Timothy 5:8, no matter how you seek to twist it.
                              Praise the Lord that not everyone, and not all Christians have that selfish view. Where does it end, where does it lead us? The hospitals in Canada face the same needs we do.

                              Push hardship on others less fortunate, less able, is hardly consistent with a Christian worldview.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                It's just a run of the mill example from MM of the common ignorance I see among conservatives on this site regarding common viewpoints among liberals.

                                And then they get offended when I point out how ignorant they are of common viewpoints within their country.
                                That is pretty much equally common among liberals as among conservatives, equally common among atheists as among evangelicals. But this is the first time I have seen an evangelical Christian refer to it as trolling, though. It is a common viewpoint.

                                It is a viewpoint I do not agree with.

                                Comment

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