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    America first?

    If this has been addressed elsewhere here, I have missed it.

    Should the US limit the exportation of masks? There has been a spat between Trump and 3M over masks. Some of the much needed masks are being exported to places like Canada, prompting an exchange with Trudeau.

    It took some time for the FDA to alter rules over the use of nonmedical masks, 3M makes many masks for commercial purposes, not health care. 3M was given a limit on liability.

    Is 3M being obstinate? They are holding the line on prices from what I have seen, turning away from an opportunity for profit. (What has Donald Trump declared an acceptable profit level ought to be?).

    Should Italy, Latin America, or Canada get any of the masks?
    Last edited by simplicio; 04-04-2020 at 12:09 AM.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    If this has been addressed elsewhere here, I have missed it.

    Should the US limit the exportation of masks? There has been a spat between Trump and 3M over masks. Some of the much needed masks are being exported to places like Canada, prompting an exchange with Trudeau.

    It took some time for the FDA to alter rules over the use of nonmedical masks, 3M makes many masks for commercial purposes, not health care. 3M was given a limit on liability.

    Is 3M being obstinate? They are holding the line on prices from what I have seen, turning away from an opportunity for profit. (What has Donald Trump declared an acceptable profit level ought to be?).

    Should Italy, Latin America, or Canada get any of the masks?
    This has been brought up a few times in other threads, but hey you seem to have a quota of starting a dozen threads a day so I guess you have to do what you have to do.

    Here, for instance, is an exchange between little jimmy and myself after he complained about selling medical supplies (not just masks) to other countries:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Which is exactly what several Democrat lawmakers insist on when folks like AOC and Bernie Sanders declared "Pandemics know no borders" and demanded that we lift sanctions against Iran so that we can send them medical supplies: https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ns-iran-during
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, not so that we can send them medical supplies, and nowhere in that article is that stated, but so that other countries, allies, including the U.S., if a surplus exists, can send them supplies. This virus has to be conquered world wide if it's going to be conquered at all and allowing the Iranian people to suffer and die because we have differences with the government is not only immoral, but sends the wrong message to the Iranian people..
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Our lifting the ban would mean that we can send supplies. Other countries decide for themselves whether or not to comply with it or not. Some might pass their own restrictions while others might simply ignore it.

    And as the joint letter states

    We also support the U.S. offer of direct aid to Iran to combat the spread of the virus


    and

    Additionally, we encourage the U.S. to find a way to deliver aid directly to the Iranian people to support the Iranian peopleís fight against Coronavirus, as many other nations have done


    So they want the U.S. to start "deliver[ing] aid directly to the Iranian people to support the Iranian peopleís fight against Coronavirus" (they say nothing about only if there is a surplus) and note that other countries are already doing so (which reveals that the sanctions apply to us not other countries).

    This is a letter signed by some of the most leftist members of Congress, folks who tend to think that stuff just grows on trees and that we can just send it without endangering our own people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    This has been brought up a few times in other threads, but hey you seem to have a quota of starting a dozen threads a day so I guess you have to do what you have to do.

    Here, for instance, is an exchange between little jimmy and myself after he complained about selling medical supplies (not just masks) to other countries:
    Okay, it has been discussed.

    But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems). I get the distinct impression that the exchange had more to do with political stands, rather than any moral principles which can be applied.

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems).
    The appropriate size of our 'moral circle' (how large or small a group of people we see ourselves as having a moral obligation to / how much that tapers off as people are more distant to us) is an interesting topic in morality.

    Conservatives seem to prefer quite 'small' / 'tight' moral circles, prioritizing the well-being of their immediate families, or their local communities, very much over society at large and over people that they see as different to them. So a conservative answer would that be that America should put America First and steal what it feels like from other countries, and if people in distant lands die as a result, that's fine.

    Whereas liberals seem to prefer quite large / infinite moral circles, where humanity in the abstract is conceived of as all of equal value, and liberals tend to feel that in theory (even if their actions in practice don't match it) they ought to strive to care as much about the well-being of a human far away from them as a human close to them. Therefore the liberal answer would be that America has no more right to masks than any other nations, and saving one American if it kills 2 Italians to do so, would be immoral.

    The moral philosopher Peter Singer has written a book on the topic (which I admittedly haven't read, but it's on my list), about how over the course of human history, humanity has on the whole tended toward gradually expanding its 'circle of moral concern'. So where once a person cared almost solely about their immediate family and almost not at all about anyone distant, that has developed over history toward people viewing themselves as having strong moral obligations to others in their city, county, and even wanting to help people in distant countries.

    The bible itself evidences this same sort of 'moral progress' in terms of an expanding circle of moral concern over its history. Initially the characters (Abraham, Lot etc) are concerned almost solely with immediate family, which develops in the OT over time into a concern for the nation of Israel as a whole, and then in the NT it expands to a concern for the world where instead of writing off the gentiles as morally irrelevant heathens it becomes understood that they too are God's children. Jesus takes the 'love thy neighbor' teaching - which, if you take it literally is very conservative and narrow in terms of how big its moral circle is - and expands it to include an out-group (the Samaritans in his parable) who would tended to be classed by his hearers among the morally objectionable heathen rather than neighbors. So on the whole, I would tend to say the bible develops from the conservative narrow moral circle viewpoint through to the liberal large moral circle viewpoint.

    Psychologist Jonathan Haidt has also done a lot of interesting work in this area with regard to his Moral Foundations theory, in which he's found by surveying people that conservatives place a lot more emphasis on "in-group" loyalty than liberals do. To stereotype a bit, conservatives tend to think it important and moral to view the world as containing a group of people they need to protect / be loyal to, who are their in-group, in contrast to the out-group whom they need to fight and oppose and protect their in-group from, and in that sense often see it as moral to hurt the out-group in order to help the in-group. Whereas liberals tend to hold a different view of morality in which they see themselves as being morally obligated to do good to everyone, and don't see the idea of hurting some to help others as a moral idea.
    Last edited by Starlight; 04-04-2020 at 02:44 AM.

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Okay, it has been discussed.

    But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems). I get the distinct impression that the exchange had more to do with political stands, rather than any moral principles which can be applied.
    Let me put it this way: I do not believe it would be Biblical to starve my children in order to give food to someone in need.

    If we are selling medical supplies out of our surplus then that's fine, but if we are depleting our stock and leaving ourselves dangerously unprepared then that's a problem.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Let me put it this way: I do not believe it would be Biblical to starve my children in order to give food to someone in need.

    If we are selling medical supplies out of our surplus then that's fine, but if we are depleting our stock and leaving ourselves dangerously unprepared then that's a problem.
    Right now it is not your children, but your neighbor. But scripture does contain the question of just who is your neighbor.

    Is the Christian in Canada your neighbor?

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Here's some food for thought:

    Michael Roman the CEO of 3M sells its face masks to foreigners with cash


    Mike Lindell the CEO of MyPillow diverts 75% of his production into making face masks for American doctors and nurses


    Guess which one gets attacked by the MSM?




    Just sayin'

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Here's some food for thought:

    Michael Roman the CEO of 3M sells its face masks to foreigners with cash


    Mike Lindell the CEO of MyPillow diverts 75% of his production into making face masks for American doctors and nurses


    Guess which one gets attacked by the MSM?




    Just sayin'
    So, you are either unwilling or unable to discuss any moral principles which can be used to guide any decision making process. You are able to point to MSM.

    Just sayin'.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    So, you are either unwilling or unable to discuss any moral principles which can be used to guide any decision making process. You are able to point to MSM.

    Just sayin'.
    Whiny little pup aren't you?

    Okay, was it moral for leftists to savage Lindell for converting his business so that it could supply us with up to 50,000 masks a day, while giving a free pass to Roman for selling masks overseas? smiley smug-sly.gif

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Okay, was it moral for leftists to savage Lindell for converting his business so that it could supply us with up to 50,000 masks a day, while giving a free pass to Roman for selling masks overseas?
    Wow, you really have been whining on about that! Bee in your bonnet much?

    Firstly, I'm not ready to give out sainthood to some random CEO who realizes in the current market people will pay more for masks than for pillows. If he's maximizing profit, that's not a moral act. If if happens that he's donating the masks (I haven't looked into it), that's nice, but people make charity donations all the time, and good for them... is this an especially large charity donation which makes him stand out from the crowd?

    Secondly, American law requires companies to maximize profits. If you want the CEO of 3M to do something other than maximize profits, say, take the welfare of the people into account, perhaps America shouldn't have such a stupid law? Britain's Companies Act legally mandates company operators to have regard for community and environment and not just profits. If they can do it, you can do it. But please, don't be so pathetically hypocritical as to champion capitalism in this forum day in and day out and then whine whine whine when your capitalism causes a company to maximize profits to the detriment of the American public. Try realizing your own ideology is the problem.
    Last edited by Starlight; 04-04-2020 at 03:00 AM.

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