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Evangelicals full of fear

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    Ok, I have admitted I made an error due to a misunderstanding based on the fact that English is not my main language.

    In my language we don't use capital letters at all when describing a persons religion, so we would write "christian" instead of "Christian". I thought in English one would generally use capital letters in all cases. I would be happy to correct the error in the opening post and elsewhere but I cannot.

    You will see the error two times in the opening post: "Messiah College historian John Fea, himself an Evangelical, has some rather interesting observations and thoughts about Evangelicals." His observations and thoughts are obviously about "evangelicals".

    You seem to use almost all posts in here to repeat your pointing to an error I have admitted and had no intention of making.
    It's an important point, Charles, and I tried a number of times to point out the difference, but you just plowed ahead.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Not so much take it away as give us the strength and determination not to act on it, and the wisdom to recognize it. Yet in so many places, and on so many web pages, much of the opposite rings out.

      This is one of the reasons I just tuned out all the end-times eschatological musings long ago. It's all fear mongering and paranoia. And that element is one of the seeds that produces so many of the crazy ideas we see coming out of Evangelical Christendom. Evangelicals steeped in these end times prognostications are always on the paranoid look out for any and all possible indications the end has come - obscuring and hindering their focus on trusting God and helping those in need now. They often see every action towards peace in the world as a move towards the manifestation of the false prophet of peace and the anti-Christ ushering in the Tribulation. And in the end it undercuts the Gospel message. They see conspiracies everywhere. The Illuminati, the one world order, and so on and so on. I used to follow it. But I fairly early on realized this is not what God wants from us. He wants us to trust him and BE salt and light in the world, to BE the church and to help people find the peace, grace and redemption that come from knowing Christ. Living open,vulnerable,loving lives. Not murmuring among ourselves wondering if the latest id card or global initiative is paving the way for the anti-Christ.
      Your first line is a better way of saying it than what I did. Inspiring post. Thanks.
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        How many times in the past several weeks has ox mentioned how "SCARY!' the latest Chinese virus projections are?
        I have seen him point to statistics and I have seen him sharing his opinion that others have too slowly realized how serious this was. I think that is absolutely fair in a context in which human lives are at stake. Using expressions like "SCARY!' in this context seems childish or cold.
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          Not much different than the gloom and doom scientific prophets you uphold, and they have much more impact and influence on the world than the evangelicals you detest. How many children have been frightened to the point of emotional hysterics because they believe the world is doomed in a decade? Those are the folks you choose to honor.
          seanD - you need to think carefully before you say things about me that are not true. First I don't detest evangelicals. I love them. I am one. However, I do detest what ignorance and fear does to them. Some of my wife's closest friends are off in the weeds with the same crazy stuff I'm talking about. But they are indeed convinced all this stuff is real, even when given clear evidence it is not. But we love them dearly.

          And I would ask you how many children have lost their faith and/or been frightened to emotional hysterics over the latest prognostications about the end times, or the denials of basic scientific facts like the age of the Earth and Universe, or the fact the world is warming, or denial of the fact life has a mult-million year history on this earth.

          What I hold up seanD is the truth and faith in God which allows us to best deal with that Truth. But like Jesus said, before you go to battle, make sure you honestly and truthfully assess the strength of the enemy and determine if you have the forces necessary to defeat them. Otherwise, go make peace with them. That means, bottom line, FACE THE TRUTH. Be honest about what is true and what is not. As Augustine said, if the world sees people that claim to follow Christ unable to process or understand what is in this world and right before us, how can they trust us to have a lick of sense about what we can't see or prove as regards the Spiritual Truths found in Scripture? Indeed, and I have found this to be so often true, it is often those that aggressively live in denial about what we can learn about and from the world that also live in denial about what the truth of God as it is found in Scripture.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            seanD - you need to think carefully before you say things about me that are not true. First I don't detest evangelicals. I love them. I am one. However, I do detest what ignorance and fear does to them. Some of my wife's closest friends are off in the weeds with the same crazy stuff I'm talking about. But they are indeed convinced all this stuff is real, even when given clear evidence it is not. But we love them dearly.

            And I would ask you how many children have lost their faith and/or been frightened to emotional hysterics over the latest prognostications about the end times, or the denials of basic scientific facts like the age of the Earth and Universe, or the fact the world is warming, or denial of the fact life has a mult-million year history on this earth.

            What I hold up seanD is the truth and faith in God which allows us to best deal with that Truth. But like Jesus said, before you go to battle, make sure you honestly and truthfully assess the strength of the enemy and determine if you have the forces necessary to defeat them. Otherwise, go make peace with them. That means, bottom line, FACE THE TRUTH. Be honest about what is true and what is not. As Augustine said, if the world sees people that claim to follow Christ unable to process or understand what is in this world and right before us, how can they trust us to have a lick of sense about what we can't see or prove as regards the Spiritual Truths found in Scripture? Indeed, and I have found this to be so often true, it is often those that aggressively live in denial about what we can learn about and from the world that also live in denial about what the truth of God as it is found in Scripture.
            What "crazy stuff" about evangelicals are speaking of? The fact we believe a crucified man, who defied science with his miracles, rose from the dead after three days and sailed off into the sky to heaven ( I assume you believe that); the fact there is a whole supernatural world out there that intermingles with our world (Holy Spirit, miracles, divine providence, etc)... yeah, man, that's some "crazy stuff," "off in the weeds" type stuff, isn't it? Can science quantify that? Whether you are or aren't an evangelical yourself, that doesn't mean you can't detest them. It's clear in your posts, and everyone sees it, which makes it even more noxious that you claim you identify with them. That just means you either hate yourself or you're just so self-righteous and arrogant, you think you're above them. I tend to lean towards the latter by how you come across in your posts.

            Comment


            • #81
              It really creeps me out (not fear, mind you, just creepy) how often ox and Charles agree with each other.



              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                It really creeps me out (not fear, mind you, just creepy) how often ox and Charles agree with each other.

                I can understand why you would get that impression but I would say it is probably more that we agree to disagree.

                I am obviously not a Christian and Ox is, so you would not have to scratch a lot beneath the surface to see that we would disagree a lot. I think his understanding of what Christianity is and how you should treat people you disagree with is very close to my understanding. There is a tendency on here to maintain a rather harsh tone towards those one disagrees with. Ox is very good at avoiding that and that might give the impression that we agree - and we certainly do at times. However, on a deeper level I would say we respectfully disagree. A lot.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  What "crazy stuff" about evangelicals are speaking of? The fact we believe a crucified man, who defied science with his miracles, rose from the dead after three days and sailed off into the sky to heaven ....
                  My cult believes in eating flesh, drinking blood and dead people coming back to life! As a matter of fact, this Sunday, our morning service is gonna be ALL ABOUT that!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    What "crazy stuff" about evangelicals are speaking of? The fact we believe a crucified man, who defied science with his miracles, rose from the dead after three days and sailed off into the sky to heaven ( I assume you believe that); the fact there is a whole supernatural world out there that intermingles with our world (Holy Spirit, miracles, divine providence, etc)... yeah, man, that's some "crazy stuff," "off in the weeds" type stuff, isn't it? Can science quantify that? Whether you are or aren't an evangelical yourself, that doesn't mean you can't detest them. It's clear in your posts, and everyone sees it, which makes it even more noxious that you claim you identify with them. That just means you either hate yourself or you're just so self-righteous and arrogant, you think you're above them. I tend to lean towards the latter by how you come across in your posts.
                    seanD, there is a vast difference between belief in good and uplifting things which can't be shown to be true beyond reasonable doubt, and belief in those things good or bad which can be shown to be false beyond reasonable doubt.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      As Augustine said, if the world sees people that claim to follow Christ unable to process or understand what is in this world and right before us, how can they trust us to have a lick of sense about what we can't see or prove as regards the Spiritual Truths found in Scripture?
                      The very fact that you believe in an unseen God and place your faith in a man who rose from the dead is enough in and of itself for most skeptics to question your rationality and scientific understanding. For a skeptic to say, "I reject your arguments for the resurrection because you do not possess what I consider to be adequate knowledge of some other arbitrary subject," should be recognized for the logical fallacy that it is.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                        There is a tendency on here to maintain a rather harsh tone towards those one disagrees with. Ox is very good at avoiding that...


                        Please tell me you're being sarcastic!
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Charles
                          There is a tendency on here to maintain a rather harsh tone towards those one disagrees with.
                          Is that why you started 2 threads this morning basically banning everybody who disagrees with you?


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            Is that why you started 2 threads this morning basically banning everybody who disagrees with you?
                            Here is what I said in one of them: "No name calling in this thread, please. Posts must be on topic and not about my person." It should be quite easy to disagree without having to go for name calling or changing the subject.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              It really creeps me out (not fear, mind you, just creepy) how often ox and Charles agree with each other.

                              Only because you don't understand who I am, or who Charles is. As best I can tell, Charles is a former Christian who somewhere along the way lost his faith, but who still understands, and in many ways values, what our faith teaches. He can see the obvious conflicts between that faith and those values as he understands them. I am a man who has confronted many of the truths that often cause Christians to lose faith, but I have not lost my faith. But I am also a person that, like Charles, sees the obvious conflicts between what is posted on this site and the life and teachings of Christ and the disciples. Modern evangelicalism, as it is often expressed here, has lost its way in certain areas. Not completely, not even perhaps mostly. But as often as not, and very often on these pages, evangelicals present themselves as without compassion for a suffering world, as driven by laws of do's and don'ts, rather than the grace and mercy of God. And while in confronting those issues grace and love are often raised as rebukes of my points, it would be as if I saw a man beating his wife, and as I moved to intervene yelling out 'don't beat your wife', those around me rebuked me loudly and profusely for 'judging' him.

                              PS: Charles, I acknowledge my perception of you may not be who you are. I am not trying to say I 'know' who you are. I have merely described how I perceive you to be in this area based on how you have posted on these sites.
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-07-2020, 01:10 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I am also a person that, like Charles, sees the obvious conflicts between what is posted on this site and the life and teachings of Christ and the disciples.
                                This is the Jesus you follow:

                                Buddy_christ.jpg

                                I think Jesus' view of science would have been similar to his view of politics: "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." In other words, leave the politics to the politicians, and leave the science to the scientists. Your focus should be on greater things.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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