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Evangelicals full of fear

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  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]44049[/ATTACH]

    You never would have picked him and what he said unless he was an Evangelical that you thought you could exploit to further your agenda.
    He is a Christian and an evangelical. And you still cannot adress his points, it seems. It was an error since English is not my main langauge. If you like to pretend it means a world of difference to what he says, you are rather desperate.
    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Charles View Post
      He is a Christian and an evangelical....
      Tassy? Is that YOU?
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #63
        Other interesting takes on how American evangelical history is guided by fear:

        If you look closely at American evangelical history, you see fear everywhere. During the early 19th century, white evangelicals in the South constructed a “way of life” built around slavery and white supremacy. When Northern abolitionists (many of whom were also evangelicals, I might add) threatened this way of life by calling for the end of slavery, white evangelicals in the South responded by turning to the Bible and constructing a theological and biblical defense of slavery and racism. After the Civil War, the fear of integrating blacks into white society led to Jim Crow laws and desegregation.

        Meanwhile, in the North, many white evangelicals feared the influx of Irish immigrants, especially in the 1850s. These immigrants not only had different religious beliefs (Catholicism), but they were viewed by many as members of a different, inferior race. The same could be said of white evangelical responses to Italian immigrants and Jews at the turn of the 20th century.
        With such a long history, it should not surprise us that so many white evangelicals believed Donald Trump’s accusations that Barack Obama, the nation’s first black president, was not born in this country or was a secret Muslim. A 2015 CNN poll found that 43 percent of Republicans, a political party dominated by white evangelicals, believed that Obama was a Muslim. This, of course, is not true. It can only be explained by racial and religious fear.
        https://www.vox.com/2018/11/5/180594...alism-john-fea
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          Other interesting takes on how American evangelical history is guided by fear:...
          Yes, Charles, this alleged "Evangelical" has some rather interesting OPINIONS. He seems rather obsessed with fear.

          Next?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            You mean like the collusion delusion?
            No, I mean things like Bill Gates trying to help out being turned into some sort of bizarre power grab, or him trying to get money out of developing a vaccine, or even the mark of the beast through a desire to validate everyone has had all their vaccines.

            I'm talking about the continued idiocy that surrounds the idea that COVID 19 is being over-hyped to make trump look bad, or to lose him the election, or as part of the ever present one world order/mark of the beast etc.

            I'm talking about those Christians that are given over to the anti-vax psseudo-science garbage carrying on about the covid19 vaccine.

            And of course the continued endless list of conspiracy theories and pseudo-scientific iinanity that surrounds the Global Warning issue.

            To name but a few.

            It is today as it was when Augustine wrote of those Christians intent on perpetuating ignorance in his day:

            Source: Augustine: The literal meaning of Genesis

            Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].

            © Copyright Original Source



            Now all I'm saying is the same thing. The problem is this sort of thing is pervasive, almost the dominant form of thought in conservative evangelical circles. And that is why I call it out.

            Of course, we don't find many of you accusing Augustine of throwing the ignorant Christians of his day under the Bus by calling out their ignorance. Such is the nature of hindsight I suppose.
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-07-2020, 09:33 AM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
              By your own logic you are shoving your own fellow Christian, Ox, underneath the bus and you have done so repeatedly. But, once again, it seems you have no problem with double standards.

              And, you may have noticed the part I qoted in the opening post was promoting Christian values and ways of life and only challenged whether people acted accordingly. But, it seems, family separation and hostility towards the stranger is so integral to your identity that you feel it challenges your faith if anyone says it is wrong even if it is a "fellow Christian". And where was your support for the "assumption" he was pro homosexual practice. Do you have anything to support it?
              Nope... I've never talked about Democrats in the nasty, judgmental, mean-spirited way ox talks about his President, and I have never questioned whether or not someone was a "true ChristianTM" just because they supported Obama, or voted for Hillary. And that's really what the OP is, a "no true Christian fallacy".

              "No Christian would ever support the policies of President Trump."
              "I'm a Christian, and I support the policies of President Trump."
              "Well then, no true Christian would ever support the policies of President Trump."

              As for whether or not Fea supports homosexuality, the article you cited only vaguely referred to "some kind of change in the culture" without elaborating, and since "sexual fluidity" has been, I think, the biggest cultural change in the last few decades, I made a reasoned assumption. But let's put that assumption to the side. Fea's premise is that Christians should necessarily be willing to generally accept "some kind of change in the culture", and I reject that premise. There are certainly cultural changes that we absolutely should NOT accept, and not accepting them does not mean we are fearful and not "true Christians".

              As for John Fea himself, I can't seem to find much about him other than that his claim to fame is that he identifies as a Christian and wrote a book critical of other Christians who support Trump, which has naturally made him a darling of the liberal media who gleefully quotes in their Trump/Christian bashing articles. I did come across one article, however, in which Fea was apparently dismissive of those Christians who condemned Pete Buttigieg's homosexuality, saying that it was "much ado about nothing" because Christians weren't going to vote for a Democrat anyway. What a curious standard.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                Other interesting takes on how American evangelical history is guided by fear:


                https://www.vox.com/2018/11/5/180594...alism-john-fea
                If I didn't know any better, I would think a fear of change was a human quality and not something unique to evangelicals.

                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Nope... I've never talked about Democrats in the nasty, judgmental, mean-spirited way ox talks about his President, and I have never questioned whether or not someone was a "true ChristianTM" just because they supported Obama, or voted for Hillary. And that's really what the OP is, a "no true Christian fallacy".

                  "No Christian would ever support the policies of President Trump."
                  "I'm a Christian, and I support the policies of President Trump."
                  "Well then, no true Christian would ever support the policies of President Trump."

                  As for whether or not Fea supports homosexuality, the article you cited only vaguely referred to "some kind of change in the culture" without elaborating, and since "sexual fluidity" has been, I think, the biggest cultural change in the last few decades, I made a reasoned assumption. But let's put that assumption to the side. Fea's premise is that Christians should necessarily be willing to generally accept "some kind of change in the culture", and I reject that premise. There are certainly cultural changes that we absolutely should NOT accept, and not accepting them does not mean we are fearful and not "true Christians".

                  As for John Fea himself, I can't seem to find much about him other than that his claim to fame is that he identifies as a Christian and wrote a book critical of other Christians who support Trump, which has naturally made him a darling of the liberal media who gleefully quotes in their Trump/Christian bashing articles. I did come across one article, however, in which Fea was apparently dismissive of those Christians who condemned Pete Buttigieg's homosexuality, saying that it was "much ado about nothing" because Christians weren't going to vote for a Democrat anyway. What a curious standard.
                  Doesn't sound much like an Evangelical, eh?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Nope... I've never talked about Democrats in the nasty, judgmental, mean-spirited way ox talks about his President, and I have never questioned whether or not someone was a "true ChristianTM" just because they supported Obama, or voted for Hillary. And that's really what the OP is, a "no true Christian fallacy".
                    [...]
                    Sorry for cutting but I think we have a different understanding with regard to this. I am not reading it as if he is making a "no true Christian" statement. I rather see him making a "not true Christianity" statement. He is using strong worlds like hypocrisy and the like, but I simply do not see him claiming they are not Christians. Quite the opposite actually. I think that is why he is so concerned about this topic. In other contexts he has made it very clear that his focus on "dark side" history of evangelicals is only important because it is standing in the way of so much good.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Of course, we don't find many of you accusing Augustine of throwing the ignorant Christians of his day under the Bus by calling out their ignorance. Such is the nature of hindsight I suppose.
                      If you see yourself as a modern day St. Augustine then I'm afraid you think far too highly of yourself.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Doesn't sound much like an Evangelical, eh?
                        Ok, I have admitted I made an error due to a misunderstanding based on the fact that English is not my main language.

                        In my language we don't use capital letters at all when describing a persons religion, so we would write "christian" instead of "Christian". I thought in English one would generally use capital letters in all cases. I would be happy to correct the error in the opening post and elsewhere but I cannot.

                        You will see the error two times in the opening post: "Messiah College historian John Fea, himself an Evangelical, has some rather interesting observations and thoughts about Evangelicals." His observations and thoughts are obviously about "evangelicals".

                        You seem to use almost all posts in here to repeat your pointing to an error I have admitted and had no intention of making.
                        Last edited by Charles; 04-07-2020, 10:18 AM.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          If I didn't know any better, I would think a fear of change was a human quality and not something unique to evangelicals.

                          I don't see anyone challenging the idea that fear of change is a human quality. The point rather seems to be that the Christian message should take away that fear and should cause human beings to not be guided by their fear. Mossrose wrote about this in one of the first posts: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post725940

                          Here is a part of what I quoted Fea saying in the opening post:
                          "Fear represents a kind of lack of faith in God's sovereignty or God's will to work out his purposes. I love the quote from Marylinne Robinson: 'Fear is not a Christian habit of mind.' Fear is a product of the broken world that we live in, but fear is not a place where one can dwell and still claim to be an evangelical Christian. It produces negative consequences.
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            I don't see anyone challenging the idea that fear of change is a human quality. The point rather seems to be that the Christian message should take away that fear and should cause human beings to not be guided by their fear. Mossrose wrote about this in one of the first posts: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post725940

                            Here is a part of what I quoted Fea saying in the opening post:
                            Not so much take it away as give us the strength and determination not to act on it, and the wisdom to recognize it. Yet in so many places, and on so many web pages, much of the opposite rings out.

                            This is one of the reasons I just tuned out all the end-times eschatological musings long ago. It's all fear mongering and paranoia. And that element is one of the seeds that produces so many of the crazy ideas we see coming out of Evangelical Christendom. Evangelicals steeped in these end times prognostications are always on the paranoid look out for any and all possible indications the end has come - obscuring and hindering their focus on trusting God and helping those in need now. They often see every action towards peace in the world as a move towards the manifestation of the false prophet of peace and the anti-Christ ushering in the Tribulation. And in the end it undercuts the Gospel message. They see conspiracies everywhere. The Illuminati, the one world order, and so on and so on. I used to follow it. But I fairly early on realized this is not what God wants from us. He wants us to trust him and BE salt and light in the world, to BE the church and to help people find the peace, grace and redemption that come from knowing Christ. Living open,vulnerable,loving lives. Not murmuring among ourselves wondering if the latest id card or global initiative is paving the way for the anti-Christ.
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-07-2020, 10:54 AM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              Not so much take it away as give us the strength and determination not to act on it, and the wisdom to recognize it. Yet in so many places, and on so many web pages, much of the opposite rings out.

                              This is one of the reasons I just tuned out all the end-times eschatological musings long ago. It's all fear mongering and paranoia. And that element is one of the seeds that produces so many of the crazy ideas we see coming out of Evangelical Christendom. Evangelicals steeped in these end times prognostications are always on the paranoid look out for any and all possible indications the end has come - obscuring and hindering their focus on trusting God and helping those in need now. They often see every action towards peace in the world as a move towards the manifestation of the false prophet of peace and the anti-Christ ushering in the Tribulation. And in the end it undercuts the Gospel message. They see conspiracies everywhere. The Illuminati, the one world order, and so on and so on. I used to follow it. But I finally realized this is not what God wants from us. He wants us to trust him and BE salt and light in the world, to BE the church and to help people find the peace, grace and redemption that come from knowing Christ. Living open,vulnerable,loving lives. Not murmuring among ourselves wondering if the latest id card or global initiative is paving the way for the anti-Christ.
                              Not much different than the gloom and doom scientific prophets you uphold, and they have much more impact and influence on the world than the evangelicals you detest. How many children have been frightened to the point of emotional hysterics because they believe the world is doomed in a decade? Those are the folks you choose to honor.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                Not much different than the gloom and doom scientific prophets you uphold, and they have much more impact and influence on the world than the evangelicals you detest. How many children have been frightened to the point of emotional hysterics because they believe the world is doomed in a decade? Those are the folks you choose to honor.
                                How many times in the past several weeks has ox mentioned how "SCARY!' the latest Chinese virus projections are?
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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