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Cornelius and Total Depravity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    Some people say that before Cornelius became a Christian, he was a devout man and he feared God. They also say that God was pleased with prayers before he became a Christian. They would say that this disproves the total depravity of man. What do you think about this? Is Cornelius really a non-Christian in Acts 10:1-4? If he was a non-Christian, does the fact that he feared God disprove the total depravity of man?

    Acts 10:1-4 states:
    He was no doubt born again (saved). Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that Peter directed in the right direction.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      He was no doubt born again (saved). Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that Peter directed in the right direction.
      The Holy Spirit is given to those who hear with faith:

      Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

      Not all believers profit from it:

      1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

      Heb 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

      The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to increase faith:

      Acts 19:6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied.

      1 Cor 14:4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

      Deut 8:3He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

      The mistake of those who do not profit from the trust strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit are believers who allow fear to dominate, rather than allowing the work of the Holy Spirit to take effect:

      Numbers 14:4So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”

      Psalms 106:21They forgot God their Savior,
      who did great things in Egypt,
      22wondrous works in the land of Ham,
      and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

      Matt 14:31Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

      Those who profited from it, meta noia-ed, repented, changed from not having a strong trust in God, to having a strong trust in God:

      Numbers 14:20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

      24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

      John 3:3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

      God requires a strong trust in Him, because being blessings to the world requires us to pick up crosses, so that when we are rescued by God, the world will be drawn to Him, which is why the Kingdom must be entered, because this is the City built by God, where great works can be done, through the finger of God:

      Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

      John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

      John 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

      However, this City was not built, Promised Land, Rest was not prepared, Inheritance not created, until Christ died on the Cross:

      Heb 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

      Heb 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

      Heb 4:7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
      “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
      DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

      Quote
      We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


      https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/



      So when God tests us to see if we have a strong trust, have changed, repented, we must demonstrate that strong trust:

      Heb 4:11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

      Luke 14:28Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man could not finish what he started to build.’

      31Or what king on his way to war with another king will not first sit down and consider whether he can engage with ten thousand men the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32And if he is unable, he will send a delegation while the other king is still far off, to ask for terms of peace.

      33In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple.



      If we fail God's test, we will never have another opportunity:

      Heb 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

      Heb 3:17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

      Acts 5:9Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

      Of course to experience the blessings and curses requires us to be included in the covenant, which many of us are not:

      Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.


      Last edited by footwasher; 12-24-2020, 04:32 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        The Holy Spirit is given to those who hear with faith:

        Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

        Not all believers profit from it:

        1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

        Heb 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

        The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to increase faith:

        Acts 19:6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied.

        1 Cor 14:4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

        Deut 8:3He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

        The mistake of those who do not profit from the trust strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit are believers who allow fear to dominate, rather than allowing the work of the Holy Spirit to take effect:

        Numbers 14:4So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”

        Psalms 106:21They forgot God their Savior,
        who did great things in Egypt,
        22wondrous works in the land of Ham,
        and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

        Matt 14:31Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

        Those who profited from it, meta noia-ed, repented, changed from not having a strong trust in God, to having a strong trust in God:

        Numbers 14:20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

        24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

        John 3:3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

        God requires a strong trust in Him, because being blessings to the world requires us to pick up crosses, so that when we are rescued by God, the world will be drawn to Him, which is why the Kingdom must be entered, because this is the City built by God, where great works can be done, through the finger of God:

        Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

        John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

        John 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

        However, this City was not built, Promised Land, Rest was not prepared, Inheritance not created, until Christ died on the Cross:

        Heb 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

        Heb 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

        Heb 4:7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
        “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
        DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

        Quote
        We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


        https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/



        So when God tests us to see if we have a strong trust, have changed, repented, we must demonstrate that strong trust:

        Heb 4:11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

        Luke 14:28Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man could not finish what he started to build.’

        31Or what king on his way to war with another king will not first sit down and consider whether he can engage with ten thousand men the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32And if he is unable, he will send a delegation while the other king is still far off, to ask for terms of peace.

        33In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple.



        If we fail God's test, we will never have another opportunity:

        Heb 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

        Heb 3:17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

        Acts 5:9Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

        Of course to experience the blessings and curses requires us to be included in the covenant, which many of us are not:

        Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

        You need to understand this in light of faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must already have before you can truly believe. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900).

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          You need to understand this in light of faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must already have before you can truly believe. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900).
          Yes, I wrote above:

          Quote The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to increase faith:

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            Yes, I wrote above:

            Quote The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to increase faith:
            Paul says the Holy Spirit produces it. God buts give you a born- again heart before you can believe. “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

            Comment


            • #36

              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              Paul says the Holy Spirit produces it. God buts give you a born- again heart before you can believe. “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

              Actually, the sequence is like this:


              God gives the faith creating work of the Holy Spirit to those who hear with belief.

              Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

              The believer must bear fruit, grow his faith.

              Luke 13:6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.


              Heb 6:7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;


              If he does not, he is wasting the ground.

              Luke 13:7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

              Heb 6:8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


              He will be cut down, after being excused for some time:

              Luke 13:8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’

              Heb 6:8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


              For three years Christ gave bread to the Children:

              Matt 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22“Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23“And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.


              Matt 15:26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”



              But they did not bear fruit, so they were cut off:

              Luke 13:34“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35“Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”


              Now the Children are those who believe the teachings of Christ, not Moses:

              Acts 19:4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

              Yes, today it is not only Abraham's descendants by the flesh who receive the Holy Spirit, but also non-Jews, like Cornelius:

              Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

              Yes, even non-Jews like us. But when Christ comes, will he find fruit?

              Luke 18:8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post



                Actually, the sequence is like this:


                God gives the faith creating work of the Holy Spirit to those who hear with belief.

                Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

                The believer must bear fruit, grow his faith.

                Luke 13:6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.


                Heb 6:7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;


                If he does not, he is wasting the ground.

                Luke 13:7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

                Heb 6:8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


                He will be cut down, after being excused for some time:

                Luke 13:8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’

                Heb 6:8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


                For three years Christ gave bread to the Children:

                Matt 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22“Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23“And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.


                Matt 15:26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”



                But they did not bear fruit, so they were cut off:

                Luke 13:34“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35“Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”


                Now the Children are those who believe the teachings of Christ, not Moses:

                Acts 19:4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

                Yes, today it is not only Abraham's descendants by the flesh who receive the Holy Spirit, but also non-Jews, like Cornelius:

                Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

                Yes, even non-Jews like us. But when Christ comes, will he find fruit?

                Luke 18:8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
                Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. Notice; “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. Notice; “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)
                  Caleb proves the sequence is: believe, receive the ministering of the Holy Spirit, bear fruit, like a new faith, which is called being born again, having a different spirit, enabled to see and enter the Kingdom of God. In other words, regeneration after belief, not before.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    In the finance world, there's a saying -- "past performance is no guarantee of future results".

                    Same with God.

                    He has often done things differently than He has in the past.

                    Trying to predict His plans and purposes by what He has done before is a bit silly. He will do as He will.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      In the finance world, there's a saying -- "past performance is no guarantee of future results".

                      Same with God.

                      He has often done things differently than He has in the past.

                      Trying to predict His plans and purposes by what He has done before is a bit silly. He will do as He will.
                      Just stick with scripture and learn from it. Don't try to prove anything apart from that.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Caleb proves the sequence is: believe, receive the ministering of the Holy Spirit, bear fruit, like a new faith, which is called being born again, having a different spirit, enabled to see and enter the Kingdom of God. In other words, regeneration after belief, not before.
                        Spiritually dead people cannot believe in any saving sense. Salvation happens by grace before the will becomes involved.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          Just stick with scripture and learn from it.
                          And scripture shows God doing "new things", even through Christ.

                          Don't try to prove anything apart from that.
                          And, you seem totally incapable of understanding that's what I'm doing, while you're trying to chart a course based on scriptures you pull out of context.

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            And scripture shows God doing "new things", even through Christ.



                            And, you seem totally incapable of understanding that's what I'm doing, while you're trying to chart a course based on scriptures you pull out of context.
                            What scriptures do I pull from context? Name one or two.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              What scriptures do I pull from context? Name one or two.
                              My apologies --- it appears you're simply responding to bunches and bunches of scriptures that Footwasher posts.

                              I'm still getting used to the new format.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Spiritually dead people cannot believe in any saving sense. Salvation happens by grace before the will becomes involved.
                                Scripture tells us God approaches EVERYBODY, in the hope they will ALL turn to Him, seeking Him, to find Him, because we are ALL His children. He shows them their life is futile, harming each other and still only getting treasure that perishes.

                                Acts 17:26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

                                We can see this in Jacob's family. They were selfish and directionless. God gave Joseph a dream which resulted in travelling to Egypt, where their condition was magnified. With one difference: in Egypt, they were at the bottom of the food chain and suffered the most. Their eyes were opened and they called out to God for deliverance. I'm sure this happens to everyone. We expect to survive life, and God reveals the harm in the world system and the poor returns achievable. The nobler minded turn to God. Others love the darkness, and try to get room in Pharoah's palace...

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