Can One Man Die for the sins of Others?

[Christian3]

Siam, Richard Carrier is an atheist. He doesn't believe in any religion including Islam.

Your Allah said he taught the gospel to Jesus and that is the same gospel we have today.

So, is your Allah confirming a myth?

[Christian3]

Can one man die for the sins of others?
...even a Christian would have to answer NO to that question....
remember "Deicide"---the Christian accusation of "killing God" laid at the door of the Jews? ....God (not man) has to "die" in order to atone for the sins of humanity......?......

A sinful person cannot die for another sins, but a sinless person can.

God paid for our sins through the sinless Messiah, Jesus.

But what does the Qur'an say?

They will bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge. Evil indeed is that which they shall bear! (Qur'an 16:25, Hilali-Khan)

And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and other loads besides their own, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate. (Qur'an 29:13, Hilali-Khan)

Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6665, Siddique)

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6666, Siddique)

[JonathanL]

Here is a Phd---Dr Carrier....how would a Christian rate the authority and/or accuracy of his presentation?

I'll say this as graciously as I possibly can... No one who cares about being taken seriously in a discussion about the New Testament/Historicity of Jesus or the Gospels/Christianity should use anything Carrier has written as support for their standpoint.

[Cerebrum123]

Here is a Phd---Dr Carrier....how would a Christian rate the authority and/or accuracy of his presentation?

If we accept this info as accurate, then the Qu'ran is false.

And no, the idea that the Qu'ran's poetry is "really good*" isn't any reason to believe it is from Allah.

*It really isn't, I just know siam has said that is what he uses as the benchmark for the Qu'ran's claims of being of divine origin.

[Cerebrum123]

I'll say this as graciously as I possibly can... No one who cares about being taken seriously in a discussion about the New Testament/Historicity of Jesus or the Gospels/Christianity should use anything Carrier has written as support for their standpoint.

Even if Carrier wasn't a joke it still wouldn't really help him with regards to arguing for Islam.

[Trucker]

Can one man die for the sins of others?

According to the very Scriptures Muhammad told the Christians of his day to follow .... absolutely. So did Muhammad know what he was talking about or not???? And those are the very same Scriptures we read and quote you from today!! But then Muhammad denies the very Scriptures he validates. Seems Muhammad was one confused self proclaimed prophet!!!

...even a Christian would have to answer NO to that question....

Certainly NOT a Christian that readS the Scriptures!!

remember "Deicide"---the Christian accusation of "killing God" laid at the door of the Jews? ....God (not man) has to "die" in order to atone for the sins of humanity......?......

Hmmmm ... here I could have sworn that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus!! Although the Romans did it at the insistence of the Jews. Fact is, sir, Messiah was crucified because of ALL OF US!!

[siam]

Siam, Richard Carrier is an atheist. He doesn't believe in any religion including Islam.

Your Allah said he taught the gospel to Jesus and that is the same gospel we have today.

So, is your Allah confirming a myth?

...likewise...Dr Wood/Brown is a Christian...he does not believe in Islam so his opinions on what the Quran says is not particularly persuasive to me, a Muslim, who knows the Quran....

I'll say this as graciously as I possibly can... No one who cares about being taken seriously in a discussion about the New Testament/Historicity of Jesus or the Gospels/Christianity should use anything Carrier has written as support for their standpoint.

Perhaps you are right...that video was so tedious, I didn't even finish it!
What is your opinion of Bart Ehrman? I find his presentations interesting.......

[siam]

If we accept this info as accurate, then the Qu'ran is false.

And no, the idea that the Qu'ran's poetry is "really good*" isn't any reason to believe it is from Allah.

*It really isn't, I just know siam has said that is what he uses as the benchmark for the Qu'ran's claims of being of divine origin.

Poetry/Prose is really good---Yes, in a very simplistic way it would be the easy explanation to a non-Muslim----but there is actually a lot more depth to this Muslim claim which is complicated to get into so the easy explanation is given. Not to mention, most Non-Muslims are not seriously interested anyway.....

[siam]

A sinful person cannot die for another sins, but a sinless person can.

God paid for our sins through the sinless Messiah, Jesus.

But what does the Qur'an say?

They will bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge. Evil indeed is that which they shall bear! (Qur'an 16:25, Hilali-Khan)

And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and other loads besides their own, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate. (Qur'an 29:13, Hilali-Khan)

Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6665, Siddique)

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6666, Siddique)

According to Christianity, is Mary mother of God (Theotokos) sinful or sinless?

Quran Quotes...have you read them in context or just copy/paste it?

[siam]

According to the very Scriptures Muhammad told the Christians of his day to follow .... absolutely. So did Muhammad know what he was talking about or not???? And those are the very same Scriptures we read and quote you from today!! But then Muhammad denies the very Scriptures he validates. Seems Muhammad was one confused self proclaimed prophet!!!



Certainly NOT a Christian that readS the Scriptures!!



Hmmmm ... here I could have sworn that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus!! Although the Romans did it at the insistence of the Jews. Fact is, sir, Messiah was crucified because of ALL OF US!!

I do read what you post---but the English is a bit unclear....perhaps if you could rephrase or maybe use a bit more formal English? I might be able to respond?

[Cerebrum123]

Poetry/Prose is really good---Yes, in a very simplistic way it would be the easy explanation to a non-Muslim----but there is actually a lot more depth to this Muslim claim which is complicated to get into so the easy explanation is given. Not to mention, most Non-Muslims are not seriously interested anyway.....

I'm interested in actual arguments rather than subjective opinions about the quality of the Qu'ran's style. Even if it was something ordinary humans couldn't achieve then you still have to explain why that means it is from Allah rather than another source. Even Mohammed himself thought he was possessed by a demon when "Jibreel" first came to him. He should have stuck with that impression of "Jibreel" as it fits the evidence.

Edit. Effectively admitting you only want sources that agree with you shows you aren't interested in an actual discussion anyway. So you can just dispense with your projection.

[Christian3]

According to Christianity, is Mary mother of God (Theotokos) sinful or sinless?

Quran Quotes...have you read them in context or just copy/paste it?

Mary is the mother of the Messiah, Jesus.

Yes, I have read them in context.

[Dan Zebiri]

QUITE Right, Christian3.

Carrier, who siam wishes to carry water for him, will wipe out siam's islam in a heartbeat with his atheistic "revelations" about islam.

So using carrier's works to attack Christianity just exposes siam's consistent duplicity, again as usual..

Siam, Richard Carrier is an atheist. He doesn't believe in any religion including Islam.

Your Allah said he taught the gospel to Jesus and that is the same gospel we have today.

So, is your Allah confirming a myth?

[Dan Zebiri]

THIS is the YouTube link that shows how Islam also teaches other people will pay the sins for the guilty sinners on judgement Day..:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

If the islamic scholars and teachers really checked and examine their islamic sources, AND honestly teach the whole and not just selectively in bits and pieces, Islam is going to collapse and crumble like what is happening already today.

[Dan Zebiri]

So what if Dr. Wood and Dr. Brown are non-Muslims?

Dr.Wood was just citing accurately from the koranic source that Allah will sacrifice Christians and Jews to bear the punishments and sins for the muslims on judgement day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

So, Jesus can't die to as the Atonement for the sins of mankind, but Christians and Jews, Can..?

Why the islamic duplicity again, ya siam?