Originally posted by robrecht
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Explain to me Martin Luther
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostHow should I know? I am not privy to his thoughts or why he did what he did.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostLuther's contribution to Christianity is immeasurable, in spite of his humanity and fallibility. After all, none of the popes have been perfect.
He brought us out of the dark age of salvation by works into the new light of salvation by faith alone.
Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 12:23 PM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostOh, you mean that "dark age" that nobody chose to exit, save for the people in power? You mean those "dark ages" that the people of Norway fought for and died to keep around? You mean those "dark ages" that the kings and prices had to force nearly every one of their citizens to leave through way of decietful tactics and military oppression?
Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...
Actually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostActually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostOh, you mean that "dark age" that nobody chose to exit, save for the people in power? You mean those "dark ages" that the people of Norway fought for and died to keep around? You mean those "dark ages" that the kings and prices had to force nearly every one of their citizens to leave through way of decietful tactics and military oppression?
Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...
Darn that Martin Luther and that time machine of his
I'm always still in trouble again
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou mean the Dark Ages that were largely a myth and ended nearly five centuries before Luther's time?
Darn that Martin Luther and that time machine of hisBetter to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostActually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.
Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Merits:
Some practices of the RCC at the time, like Tetzel infamously claiming that indulgences could free the dead from purgatory (in contradiction to actual Catholic teaching), truly did need to be reformed.
Translated the Bible into the vernacular (a good thing to do, though I personally am not as directly affected by it as by the translations of Wycliffe and Tyndale).
Wrote "A Mighty Fortress is our God." That's a really nice hymn.
Demerits:
Started the schismatic movement that tragically fragmented what unity there was among Christians into hundreds, or maybe thousands, of denominations (with RCC, EO, and OO all existing prior to the Reformation it is not as if there were total unity, but at least the major groups were countable). The repercussions of this on Christian witness are pretty awful; this is evident to anyone who has ever talked to a non-Christian who was confused about all the different sects within Christianity.
His teaching of "sola Scriptura" has been abused and led to people believing that the Bible is the only authority, period, not the only absolute authority as Luther himself taught. Taken to its extreme conclusion this leads to every individual being his own denomination (his own Pope, if you will), deciding matters of biblical interpretation and doctrine by himself based on his own individual reading of the Bible.
His teachings of "sola fide" and "sola gracia" have been distorted into the pernicious idea that all you have to do is pray one time to accept Jesus into your heart and then nothing else matters, Bonhoeffer's "cheap grace." I've witnessed personally the damage this kind of thinking can do in people's lives, so I am not too fond of the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace alone.
Basically, my feelings are pretty mixed.Last edited by Sparrow; 05-29-2014, 07:23 PM.
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That's a pretty fair assessment, I think. Well intentioned, but both sides took it too far, without thinking of the consequences.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Some practices of the RCC at the time, like Tetzel infamously claiming that indulgences could free the dead from purgatory (in contradiction to actual Catholic teaching), truly did need to be reformed.
I admit,this sounds heretical at first, however, Tetzel was known for being needlessly hyperbolic. I doubt that he actually, sincerely believed that indulgences automatically got you out of purgatory, or that the Church taught this as their official position.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostReportedly, he said he was translating concepts and not words, but I don't have a reference to where he said this or if that is the extent of his explanation. I agree with this translation philosophy but not with this specific translation, but I have the benefit of hindsight and more recent discoveries.
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Cool, thanks!βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Sparrow View PostDemerits:
Started the schismatic movement that tragically fragmented what unity there was among Christians into hundreds, or maybe thousands, of denominations (with RCC, EO, and OO all existing prior to the Reformation it is not as if there were total unity, but at least the major groups were countable). The repercussions of this on Christian witness are pretty awful; this is evident to anyone who has ever talked to a non-Christian who was confused about all the different sects within Christianity.
Originally posted by Sparrow View PostHis teaching of "sola Scriptura" has been abused and led to people believing that the Bible is the only authority, period, not the only absolute authority as Luther himself taught. Taken to its extreme conclusion this leads to every individual being his own denomination (his own Pope, if you will), deciding matters of biblical interpretation and doctrine by himself based on his own individual reading of the Bible.
Originally posted by Sparrow View PostHis teachings of "sola fide" and "sola gracia" have been distorted into the pernicious idea that all you have to do is pray one time to accept Jesus into your heart and then nothing else matters, Bonhoeffer's "cheap grace." I've witnessed personally the damage this kind of thinking can do in people's lives, so I am not too fond of the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace alone.
Originally posted by Sparrow View PostBasically, my feelings are pretty mixed.
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