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Explain to me Martin Luther

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  • #16
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    But why did he add the word 'alone' to the text of Paul?
    I'd hazard a guess that it was an overreaction, which has caused no end of trouble to this day.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      But why did he add the word 'alone' to the text of Paul?
      How should I know? I am not privy to his thoughts or why he did what he did.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        How should I know? I am not privy to his thoughts or why he did what he did.
        Reportedly, he said he was translating concepts and not words, but I don't have a reference to where he said this or if that is the extent of his explanation. I agree with this translation philosophy but not with this specific translation, but I have the benefit of hindsight and more recent discoveries.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Luther's contribution to Christianity is immeasurable, in spite of his humanity and fallibility. After all, none of the popes have been perfect.

          He brought us out of the dark age of salvation by works into the new light of salvation by faith alone.
          Oh, you mean that "dark age" that nobody chose to exit, save for the people in power? You mean those "dark ages" that the people of Norway fought for and died to keep around? You mean those "dark ages" that the kings and prices had to force nearly every one of their citizens to leave through way of decietful tactics and military oppression?

          Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...
          Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 12:23 PM.
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
            Oh, you mean that "dark age" that nobody chose to exit, save for the people in power? You mean those "dark ages" that the people of Norway fought for and died to keep around? You mean those "dark ages" that the kings and prices had to force nearly every one of their citizens to leave through way of decietful tactics and military oppression?

            Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...

            Actually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.



            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Actually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.

              To be fair, so is TT; he just disagrees (strongly) with your characterization.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                Oh, you mean that "dark age" that nobody chose to exit, save for the people in power? You mean those "dark ages" that the people of Norway fought for and died to keep around? You mean those "dark ages" that the kings and prices had to force nearly every one of their citizens to leave through way of decietful tactics and military oppression?

                Course, I'm not implying that Luther intended it to be that way either...
                You mean the Dark Ages that were largely a myth and ended nearly five centuries before Luther's time?

                Darn that Martin Luther and that time machine of his

                I'm always still in trouble again

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  You mean the Dark Ages that were largely a myth and ended nearly five centuries before Luther's time?

                  Darn that Martin Luther and that time machine of his
                  Don't think that's what she meant, rogue.
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    Actually, I was referring to spiritual darkness.

                    I know, my point still stands, though. The thing is, if the Church's teaching and practice had become as corrupted as you say, everyone, especially the academics, should have been jumping for joy at a chance to push it away. However, this was not the case. In literally every territory it was present, the Reformation was always started almost exclusively by the kings and princes, and even then, they had to force it on their people through ways of deceit and military oppression. Civil war, even, in the case of Denmark and Norway I previously mentioned.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Merits:

                      Some practices of the RCC at the time, like Tetzel infamously claiming that indulgences could free the dead from purgatory (in contradiction to actual Catholic teaching), truly did need to be reformed.

                      Translated the Bible into the vernacular (a good thing to do, though I personally am not as directly affected by it as by the translations of Wycliffe and Tyndale).

                      Wrote "A Mighty Fortress is our God." That's a really nice hymn.

                      Demerits:

                      Started the schismatic movement that tragically fragmented what unity there was among Christians into hundreds, or maybe thousands, of denominations (with RCC, EO, and OO all existing prior to the Reformation it is not as if there were total unity, but at least the major groups were countable). The repercussions of this on Christian witness are pretty awful; this is evident to anyone who has ever talked to a non-Christian who was confused about all the different sects within Christianity.

                      His teaching of "sola Scriptura" has been abused and led to people believing that the Bible is the only authority, period, not the only absolute authority as Luther himself taught. Taken to its extreme conclusion this leads to every individual being his own denomination (his own Pope, if you will), deciding matters of biblical interpretation and doctrine by himself based on his own individual reading of the Bible.

                      His teachings of "sola fide" and "sola gracia" have been distorted into the pernicious idea that all you have to do is pray one time to accept Jesus into your heart and then nothing else matters, Bonhoeffer's "cheap grace." I've witnessed personally the damage this kind of thinking can do in people's lives, so I am not too fond of the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace alone.

                      Basically, my feelings are pretty mixed.
                      Last edited by Sparrow; 05-29-2014, 07:23 PM.

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                      • #26
                        That's a pretty fair assessment, I think. Well intentioned, but both sides took it too far, without thinking of the consequences.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #27
                          Some practices of the RCC at the time, like Tetzel infamously claiming that indulgences could free the dead from purgatory (in contradiction to actual Catholic teaching), truly did need to be reformed.
                          I assume you're referring to this?: "Soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."-Tetzel

                          I admit,this sounds heretical at first, however, Tetzel was known for being needlessly hyperbolic. I doubt that he actually, sincerely believed that indulgences automatically got you out of purgatory, or that the Church taught this as their official position.
                          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                          -Thomas Aquinas

                          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                          -Hernando Cortez

                          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Reportedly, he said he was translating concepts and not words, but I don't have a reference to where he said this or if that is the extent of his explanation. I agree with this translation philosophy but not with this specific translation, but I have the benefit of hindsight and more recent discoveries.
                            http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther01.html Here's an online version of Luther's letter on adding the word "allein" in his German translation of Romans 3 for those interested.

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                            • #29
                              Cool, thanks!
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparrow View Post
                                Demerits:

                                Started the schismatic movement that tragically fragmented what unity there was among Christians into hundreds, or maybe thousands, of denominations (with RCC, EO, and OO all existing prior to the Reformation it is not as if there were total unity, but at least the major groups were countable). The repercussions of this on Christian witness are pretty awful; this is evident to anyone who has ever talked to a non-Christian who was confused about all the different sects within Christianity.
                                It has been my understanding that Luther never wanted to separate from the RCC, only reform it (hence "the Reformation") and that the schism was largely a result of the actions of the opposing side. In other words, blaming Luther for the divisions that followed the reformation seems a bit misguided to me, or at the very least, putting the blame solely on Luther when the RCC leadership practically pushed him and his followers out of the RCC is.

                                Originally posted by Sparrow View Post
                                His teaching of "sola Scriptura" has been abused and led to people believing that the Bible is the only authority, period, not the only absolute authority as Luther himself taught. Taken to its extreme conclusion this leads to every individual being his own denomination (his own Pope, if you will), deciding matters of biblical interpretation and doctrine by himself based on his own individual reading of the Bible.
                                Wait a second. Are you trying to say that people's misuse and mischaracterization of Luthers teaching on "sola Scriptura" is somehow to be blamed on Luther? To be sure, "sola Scriptura" has been and is misused in the way you write above, but blaming Luther for it when he never intended it that way and never endorsed such a view seems a bit silly to me.
                                Originally posted by Sparrow View Post
                                His teachings of "sola fide" and "sola gracia" have been distorted into the pernicious idea that all you have to do is pray one time to accept Jesus into your heart and then nothing else matters, Bonhoeffer's "cheap grace." I've witnessed personally the damage this kind of thinking can do in people's lives, so I am not too fond of the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace alone.
                                Again, as you yourself admit, what you're opposing is the distortions his teachings have underwent, not his teachings proper. And whatever distortions his teachings have undergone can hardly be counted as demerits on Luther's account, can they? By that logic anytime a heretical cult such as the JW's and Mormons distort the teachings of the Bible those distortions should be counted as a demerit on the Biblical author's (and God's) account.

                                Originally posted by Sparrow View Post
                                Basically, my feelings are pretty mixed.
                                As I see it, only your first complaint about Luther's movement leading to the schism between the Protestant and Roman Catholic Church is even partially valid, while the two following complaints seem to me to be terribly misguided. It's hardly fair to blame a person for the consequences of distortions of his teachings, is it?

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