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Thread: Lab Leak: The conspiracy theory is shaping up to look like real possibility

  1. #341
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The problem with sorting out your options is that I prefer the simplist opton that is parallel to all the pandemics and epidemics for zoonotic viruses in history. The conclusion of all the sources I could find including Fauci is that it was most likely a naturally evolved coronavirus. Fauci is an immunologist, and I believe is completely up on the literature. To say the things he does goes to the wall against Trump and Pompeo at the risk of loosing his job, which he is often on the ledge.

    The difference between a naturally evolved coronavirus that infected people in Wuhan at the market or elsewhere, and a naturally evolved coronavirus escaping from the lab where the lab that got it from wild animal sources is what? The conclusions of all the epidemiologists and other scientists nersus versus a convenient rallying cry by the Trump/Pompeo duo to blame China as the scapegoat. Pomeo says there is a 'great deal of evidence,' but none is forthcoming.

    I will go with the academic sources I cited and Fauci is the best expert in this field with a public voice, and agrees with all the references I cited. As far as I am concerned I do not need to appeal to Occam's Razor to make the choice.
    I think we agree that the Trump/Pompeo show on this is just that - a show. So for now I'm going to move away from that and just follow this thread to the extent it drills down on the most likely origin scenario. The politics of it is that Trump and his supporters want a scapegoat to cover his past and continuing mistakes dealing with this virus. And a WIV origin they believe gives them that. OTOH, I believe we should focus on other issues with china WRT correction, and try to work with them WRT the pandemic as we will all benefit from that, and it might just give us more credibility when/if we try to address more aggressively issues like intellectual property theft.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  2. #342
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    The WHO is now defending wet markets and saying the virus might not have even originated there. But they are NOT saying it came from a lab. They want their cake and eat it to.


    ----------
    The World Health Organisation has said markets selling live animals should not be forced to closed down - despite acknowledging they can cause epidemics in humans.

    Officials said the markets were critical in providing food and jobs to millions of people across the globe and should be allowed to continue operating, even though the outbreak of coronavirus is believed to have spread from a Wuhan wet market.
    ...
    He said it is still unclear whether the market in Wuhan linked to the first several dozens of coronavirus cases in China was the actual source of the virus or if it instead played a role in spreading the disease further.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-market.html

    The more the WHO pontificates about this virus, the less I trust them. They seem to be in China's pocket.

  3. #343
    radical strawberry
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    Did coronavirus accidentally escape from a Wuhan lab? It’s doubtful. | The Fact Checker
    April 30, 2020 | 8:11 PM EDT

    In the absence of crucial information on how the novel coronavirus began many theories have flourished — one is that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan, China. The Fact Checker investigates if any evidence supports that origin story.

    The multimedia journalists are Sarah Cahlan and Meg Kelly.

    I watched this in pause and google mode. It's captioned, but not very well. All transcriptions are mine.

    Meg Kelly: The viruses most similar to the new coronavirus that causes Covid-19 are from bats that live in caves a thousand miles away.

    That's something that confused me early on because I didn't know the geography. The original SARS-CoV outbreak was in Guangdong Province, six hundred miles southeast of Wuhan. But the original SARS-CoV virus itself, like its cousin SARS-CoV-2, came from Yunnan Province, southwest of Wuhan. From a journal paper, I've gleaned the caves are in or near Pu'er City, where Zhengli Shi takes her field trips.

    Notably, a virus made its way from that cave to Guangzhou, Guangdong Province, creating the first SARS epidemic. And now it's made its way to Wuhan, creating a SARS pandemic.

    The video features interviews with Daniel Lucey, Georgetown University Infections Disease Specialist and Milton Leitenberg, University of Maryland Chemical Weapons Expert. Also interviewed are Adam Lauring, University of Michigan Medical School Professor, Angela Rasmussen, Columbia University Virologist, New York, and Peter Daszak, Ecohealth Alliance, New York.

    Kelly: As of late April, experts don't have all the information they need to say where the virus started.

    Milton Leitenberg, University of Maryland Chemical Weapons Expert: If the Chinese know evidence, of course they're not telling us or anyone else.

    That's significant because that evidence would normally come from WIV, which had previously been remarkably open to outsiders. They're not even available for interviews now. That runs counter to what I'd expect if they had good evidence CoV-2 didn't come from their labs, and were at a loss on where the virus originated. I'd expect they'd be asking for help before it was offered.

    It's not enough to say the government has the researchers gagged. It's necessary to ask why the researchers are gagged.

    There's a biosafety level 2 lab close to the market, but that doesn't handle the really dangerous viruses. That's biosafety level 4; that's WIV. WIV was set up specifically to study coronaviruses.

    Leitenberg: BL-4 is the ones you will see in films with people in a suit and an air hose attached behind them. They’re completely enclosed and protected.

    Creating the WIV was a point of national pride for China. Questioning WIV makes China lose face.

    Kelly: When China first brought the lab online, it was with the explicit goal of studying coronaviruses. Sarah Cahlan: China wanted to set up its own laboratory after the SARS outbreak to study SARS-relevant pathogens so that they could do that on their own territory without having to rely on the international system.

    That's not a divorce from the international system.

    Peter Daszak, Ecohealth Alliance President: The work we do with the Wuhan Institute of Virology is to look for viruses in bats that we think could be the next pandemic.

    Daszak goes on to compliment them on how open they've been, but it's not clear whether he means prior to the pandemic or since. Daszak is listed on a 2017 paper with Zhengli Shi featured in the video. I'd guess that's how he came to the attention of Cahlan and Kelly. That's how I'd have looked for sources.

    The WIV has had safety issues, like all BL-4 labs.

    Angela Rasmussen, Columbia University Virologist: Without fail, every single BSL-4 lab in the US gets some type of safety violation, some type of, you know, something the could do better and that’s the purpose of doing those inspections is to make sure that biosafety is as tight and secure as it can possibly be.

    China still maintains the pandemic began in the wet market.

    Daniel Lucey, Georgetown University Infections Disease Specialist: As of today, to the best of my knowledge, and I look for this every single day for 112 days, China has not divulged any information about what animals they tested from the market when they closed it, and, of course, what the results of any of those tests were.

    Yes, there are doubts, important doubts, about a lab leak, but the official story doesn't hold up. What else is there but to look at alternatives China might not want to see investigated.


    Selected references from the video.

    State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses

    Discovery of a rich gene pool of bat SARS-related coronaviruses provides new insights into the origin of SARS coronavirus Notable authors include Zhengli Shi and Peter Daszak.

    How early signs of the coronavirus were spotted, spread and throttled in China

  4. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  5. #344
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    We need to nuke those bat caves.

  6. #345
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The more the WHO pontificates about this virus, the less I trust them. They seem to be in China's pocket.
    Keep your crazy away from the machinery we need to tackle the crisis, please.

    And never, ever, cite the Daily Fail in a serious discussion. What the hell, Sparko?


    The WHO depends upon cooperation to get their data from their members. China is a member. So are we. Suggestions that the WHO should be pounding on the table or otherwise acting like idiots burning bridges we're going to need might fill some primal emotional need but they're just plain crazy.

    Or more gently, unhelpful. Very unhelpful.

  7. #346
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    We need to nuke those bat caves.
    Okay, that's crazy. But it's the kind of crazy that works for me.

  8. #347
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Keep your crazy away from the machinery we need to tackle the crisis, please.

    And never, ever, cite the Daily Fail in a serious discussion. What the hell, Sparko?
    There you go again. You can easily find the same material elsewhere.

    The WHO depends upon cooperation to get their data from their members. China is a member. So are we. Suggestions that the WHO should be pounding on the table or otherwise acting like idiots burning bridges we're going to need might fill some primal emotional need but they're just plain crazy.

    Or more gently, unhelpful. Very unhelpful.
    Their advice on things has not been particularly helpful. Do you know that they are still saying we never should have stopped international travel from China?
    And now that everyone is saying wearing a mask is useful they are still advising against wearing them. It's like they want the pandemic to get worse. Job security?

  9. #348
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Okay, that's crazy. But it's the kind of crazy that works for me.
    You you'd be onboard with these Coronavirus seeking missiles?

  10. #349
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The WHO is now defending wet markets and saying the virus might not have even originated there. But they are NOT saying it came from a lab. They want their cake and eat it to.
    Fauci an immunologist also emphatically agrees the COVID 19 has a natural origin, the greatest possibility is the Wuhan Market where the infected animals were slaughtered and sold, including all the references I have cited. Another possibility is that someone slaughtered the animal elsewhere in Wuhan.

    'Might not?' that is rather vague. Can you cite a specific WHO document.
    ----------
    The World Health Organisation has said markets selling live animals should not be forced to closed down - despite acknowledging they can cause epidemics in humans.

    Officials said the markets were critical in providing food and jobs to millions of people across the globe and should be allowed to continue operating, even though the outbreak of coronavirus is believed to have spread from a Wuhan wet market.
    ...
    He said it is still unclear whether the market in Wuhan linked to the first several dozens of coronavirus cases in China was the actual source of the virus or if it instead played a role in spreading the disease further.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-market.html

    The more the WHO pontificates about this virus, the less I trust them. They seem to be in China's pocket.
    I lived in China 9 years and realize by experience shutting down markets is like playing 'Wack a Mole.' They just sprout up elsewhere. Black Markets are everywhere.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-08-2020 at 05:18 PM.
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  11. #350
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Fauci an immunologist also emphatically agrees...
    You keep using that word "emphatically" -- might I suggest you look it up in the dictionary?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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