Page 19 of 40 FirstFirst ... 9171819202129 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 190 of 397

Thread: Lab Leak: The conspiracy theory is shaping up to look like real possibility

  1. #181
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,273
    Amen (Given)
    172
    Amen (Received)
    585
    From the National Review article

    The Google translation of the job posting is: “Taking bats as the research object, I will answer the molecular mechanism that can coexist with Ebola and SARS- associated coronavirus for a long time without disease, and its relationship with flight and longevity. Virology, immunology, cell biology, and multiple omics are used to compare the differences between humans and other mammals.” (“Omics” is a term for a subfield within biology, such as genomics or glycomics.)

    On December 24, 2019, the Wuhan Institute of Virology posted a second job posting. The translation of that posting includes the declaration, “long-term research on the pathogenic biology of bats carrying important viruses has confirmed the origin of bats of major new human and livestock infectious diseases such as SARS and SADS, and a large number of new bat and rodent new viruses have been discovered and identified.”

    Tye contends that that posting meant, “we’ve discovered a new and terrible virus, and would like to recruit people to come deal with it.”
    Yuge amount of spin.
    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

  2. #182
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,795
    Amen (Given)
    1785
    Amen (Received)
    1064
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    I found that article after watching SL's video in pause-and-google mode. It's primarily an analysis of Matthew Tye's video. It includes contrary information on his supposition that Huang Yanling was patient zero.

    None of her publicly available research papers are dated after 2015.

    That sounds like she left the lab with her masters degree in hand and stopped engaging in research five years ago, which would neatly explain initial confusion with suggestions she was currently working there and indeed, was patient zero. If she was continuing research in the lab, she'd have published, but with a bare masters she wouldn't have published alone or as the lead author.

    Any suggestion that her research has been scrubbed has a high bar to pass. I'm imagining someone scrubbing a paper because it listed me, and how that would go over with the names in front of me in the author list. The answer is, it wouldn't. It would be easier to get away with stealing their infant children.

    From the photo in Tye's video, I'd say she was far and away the prettiest. I wouldn't be surprised to find that fact is skewing attention toward her. More, she's one of three whose pictures and bios have recently been removed. And lastly, Tye says himself that he got the name from the Chinese version of FB.


    While nothing pings my radar on this article, NR has not proven to be a reliable source in general. Those looking for more reputable sources will be pleased to find links to Scientific American's March 11 article, How China’s “Bat Woman” Hunted Down Viruses from SARS to the New Coronavirus, and the Feb 3 paper in Nature — the gold standard for academic journals — A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin.

    The paper in Nature lists Tye's other name-drop, Zheng-Li Shi, as corresponding author, creating a possible conflict of interest behind the statement, "This disease outbreak—which started from a local seafood market ..."

    NR garbles the paper's results, but that's extremely common in popular press. They linked it, and summarized it well enough. Here's the straight information from the abstract.

    Full-length genome sequences were obtained from five patients at an early stage of the outbreak. The sequences are almost identical and share 79.6% sequence identity to SARS-CoV. Furthermore, we show that 2019-nCoV is 96% identical at the whole-genome level to a bat coronavirus.

    Taking that apart, "almost identical" means there's only one patient zero. "96 percent identical" means it came from a bat. "79.6 percent sequence identity" strongly suggests that it's a variant of the SARS-CoV-1 that originated with Palm Civets and caused the 2002-2004 epidemic.

    On the larger issue of origins, at this point I'm concluding with a good deal of confidence Covid-19 started with a lab accident involving a natural virus brought back with bat samples and that the references to the seafood market are a deliberate misdirection to a health risk previously known to members of the nearby lab from which it escaped.
    The more recent research I cited conflicts with your conclusions concerning the involvement of the lab, and identifies the pangolin as the most likely source and the closest genetic match, and not the bats. The research indicates that the bats have been a historical reservoir of coronaviruses transmitted from host ot host over time. The two articles I cited together give a better argument for a natural source via the Wuhan market. The suspected first patient may or may not have been the first patient, but there is no evidence of any lab workers being early victims of COVAG-19.

    The origin of COVAG-19 like SARS as a lab origin remains a vague possibility of hypothetical conjecture with no evidence. The two articles I cited together give a better argument for a natural source via the Wuhan market. The suspected first patient may or may not have been the first patient, but there is no evidence of any lab workers being early victims of COVAG-19.

    The origin of COVAG-19 like SARS as a lab origin remains a vague possibility of hypothetical conjecture with no evidence.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-17-2020 at 09:31 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #183
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    54,678
    Amen (Given)
    5604
    Amen (Received)
    23895
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The genetic research I cited determined that the most likely source was the pangolin with a near exact genetic match. The previous cited research was more recent than the following article. The bats are considered historical reservoir source of a wide variation of coronavirus spread to other hosts in China including humans in the food chain. The following offers more details.

    Source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm



    COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin
    Date: March 17, 2020
    Source: Scripps Research Institute
    Summary: An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

    The novel SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus that emerged in the city of Wuhan, China, last year and has since caused a large scale COVID-19 epidemic and spread to more than 70 other countries is the product of natural evolution, according to findings published today in the journal Nature Medicine.

    The analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

    "By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes," said Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research and corresponding author on the paper.

    In addition to Andersen, authors on the paper, "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2," include Robert F. Garry, of Tulane University; Edward Holmes, of the University of Sydney; Andrew Rambaut, of University of Edinburgh; W. Ian Lipkin, of Columbia University.

    Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that can cause illnesses ranging widely in severity. The first known severe illness caused by a coronavirus emerged with the 2003 Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) epidemic in China. A second outbreak of severe illness began in 2012 in Saudi Arabia with the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS).

    On December 31 of last year, Chinese authorities alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus causing severe illness, which was subsequently named SARS-CoV-2. As of February 20, 2020, nearly 167,500 COVID-19 cases have been documented, although many more mild cases have likely gone undiagnosed. The virus has killed over 6,600 people.

    Shortly after the epidemic began, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. The resulting genomic sequence data has shown that Chinese authorities rapidly detected the epidemic and that the number of COVID-19 cases have been increasing because of human to human transmission after a single introduction into the human population. Andersen and collaborators at several other research institutions used this sequencing data to explore the origins and evolution of SARS-CoV-2 by focusing in on several tell-tale features of the virus.

    The scientists analyzed the genetic template for spike proteins, armatures on the outside of the virus that it uses to grab and penetrate the outer walls of human and animal cells. More specifically, they focused on two important features of the spike protein: the receptor-binding domain (RBD), a kind of grappling hook that grips onto host cells, and the cleavage site, a molecular can opener that allows the virus to crack open and enter host cells.

    Evidence for natural evolution

    The scientists found that the RBD portion of the SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins had evolved to effectively target a molecular feature on the outside of human cells called ACE2, a receptor involved in regulating blood pressure. The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein was so effective at binding the human cells, in fact, that the scientists concluded it was the result of natural selection and not the product of genetic engineering.

    This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2's backbone -- its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

    "These two features of the virus, the mutations in the RBD portion of the spike protein and its distinct backbone, rules out laboratory manipulation as a potential origin for SARS-CoV-2" said Andersen.

    Josie Golding, PhD, epidemics lead at UK-based Wellcome Trust, said the findings by Andersen and his colleagues are "crucially important to bring an evidence-based view to the rumors that have been circulating about the origins of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) causing COVID-19."

    "They conclude that the virus is the product of natural evolution," Goulding adds, "ending any speculation about deliberate genetic engineering."

    Possible origins of the virus

    Based on their genomic sequencing analysis, Andersen and his collaborators concluded that the most likely origins for SARS-CoV-2 followed one of two possible scenarios.

    In one scenario, the virus evolved to its current pathogenic state through natural selection in a non-human host and then jumped to humans. This is how previous coronavirus outbreaks have emerged, with humans contracting the virus after direct exposure to civets (SARS) and camels (MERS). The researchers proposed bats as the most likely reservoir for SARS-CoV-2 as it is very similar to a bat coronavirus. There are no documented cases of direct bat-human transmission, however, suggesting that an intermediate host was likely involved between bats and humans.

    In this scenario, both of the distinctive features of SARS-CoV-2's spike protein -- the RBD portion that binds to cells and the cleavage site that opens the virus up -- would have evolved to their current state prior to entering humans. In this case, the current epidemic would probably have emerged rapidly as soon as humans were infected, as the virus would have already evolved the features that make it pathogenic and able to spread between people.

    In the other proposed scenario, a non-pathogenic version of the virus jumped from an animal host into humans and then evolved to its current pathogenic state within the human population. For instance, some coronaviruses from pangolins, armadillo-like mammals found in Asia and Africa, have an RBD structure very similar to that of SARS-CoV-2. A coronavirus from a pangolin could possibly have been transmitted to a human, either directly or through an intermediary host such as civets or ferrets.

    Then the other distinct spike protein characteristic of SARS-CoV-2, the cleavage site, could have evolved within a human host, possibly via limited undetected circulation in the human population prior to the beginning of the epidemic. The researchers found that the SARS-CoV-2 cleavage site, appears similar to the cleavage sites of strains of bird flu that has been shown to transmit easily between people. SARS-CoV-2 could have evolved such a virulent cleavage site in human cells and soon kicked off the current epidemic, as the coronavirus would possibly have become far more capable of spreading between people.

    Study co-author Andrew Rambaut cautioned that it is difficult if not impossible to know at this point which of the scenarios is most likely. If the SARS-CoV-2 entered humans in its current pathogenic form from an animal source, it raises the probability of future outbreaks, as the illness-causing strain of the virus could still be circulating in the animal population and might once again jump into humans. The chances are lower of a non-pathogenic coronavirus entering the human population and then evolving properties similar to SARS-CoV-2.

    Funding for the research was provided by the US National Institutes of Health, the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Wellcome Trust, the European Research Council, and an ARC Australian Laureate Fellowship.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Despite the USA government is conducting an investigation concerning the possibility that the COVAG-19 originated in the Wuhan lab there is absolutely no direct evidence that the lab is the source.

    I will go with the science and continue to cite science.
    Nobody is claiming it is genetically engineered. But that they were studying coronaviruses in a lab and one of the researchers got infected and spread the virus into the wild.

    And if you watch that video Starlight posted, seems like there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that is what happened. And ever paper I have read says it was transmitted from horseshoe bats.

  4. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #184
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    54,678
    Amen (Given)
    5604
    Amen (Received)
    23895
    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    From the National Review article



    Yuge amount of spin.
    So you are now pretending to be some Chinese agent instead of Russian?

    LOL.

  6. #185
    radical strawberry
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,170
    Amen (Given)
    563
    Amen (Received)
    1210
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    True. I am just tossing out what my thinking is.

    But I think the CCP is the one doing the coverup because some of the doctors tried to warn the world and they "disappeared"
    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Are you sure that wasn't just done at the local level? The first Doctor who died was harassed by local police, likely at the direction of local officials. If these other doctors that were 'disasppeared' covered a more national scope, then the evidence would lean your direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Jim, where do you think the "local officials" get their marching orders? You really think they have any degree of autonomy at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    The marching orders from their bosses are effectively to cover up their mistakes — by keeping news of them away from their bosses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, yeah, the "marching orders" come from the top.
    There's a suggestion that the Chinese national government has granular control of local officialdom.

    This goes against my personal experience of endemic corruption. As much as possible, local officials are very careful to keep their bosses from knowing what they're doing. If the boss is equally corrupt, it means extra payoffs. If they're not, or even if they are but need a scapegoat, it could mean jail, or worse. China is the world leader in capital punishment.

    But on the broader issues like allowing WHO in to conduct their own studies, there's no one but the national government to blame. These labs have been working with foreign academics for years. They welcome this in normal circumstances. On a difficult, time-sensitive problem, the welcome would be that much warmer.

    Only the national government could prevent the Wuhan lab from receiving the international support that's being offered, IMHO.

  7. #186
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    64,928
    Amen (Given)
    14062
    Amen (Received)
    28928
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    There's a suggestion that the Chinese national government has granular control of local officialdom.
    So, allow me to clear up my perspective for you.

    I don't think "granular control" is necessary, as long as the "local officials" are aware that anything they do that hacks off the higher ups can get them disappeared.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  8. #187
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,908
    Amen (Given)
    376
    Amen (Received)
    1420
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, allow me to clear up my perspective for you.

    I don't think "granular control" is necessary, as long as the "local officials" are aware that anything they do that hacks off the higher ups can get them disappeared.
    Considering there are now reports the lab in Wahun was getting western funding is even less likely the higher ups didn't know about it.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  9. #188
    radical strawberry
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,170
    Amen (Given)
    563
    Amen (Received)
    1210
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, allow me to clear up my perspective for you.

    I don't think "granular control" is necessary, as long as the "local officials" are aware that anything they do that hacks off the higher ups can get them disappeared.
    In Tye's video, there's a Chinese newscast with English subtitles.

    The news was about capital punishment for anyone coming from Wuhan who fails to report the fact and enter quarantine. The reporting wasn't strident.

    It was casual.

  10. #189
    radical strawberry
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,170
    Amen (Given)
    563
    Amen (Received)
    1210
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    In Tye's video, there's a Chinese newscast with English subtitles.
    RTT shared a better video.

  11. #190
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    64,928
    Amen (Given)
    14062
    Amen (Received)
    28928
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    In Tye's video, there's a Chinese newscast with English subtitles.

    The news was about capital punishment for anyone coming from Wuhan who fails to report the fact and enter quarantine. The reporting wasn't strident.

    It was casual.
    OK, you done it! My favorite video with subtitles!!!!

    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •