Determinism And Rationality.

[shunyadragon]

But we are DNA, and are self-aware.

No we are not DNA. We are a product of DNA.

And almost all animals, including many primates, survive with out any self-awareness. So it is not necessary for survival. Again: why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware? I will be waiting...

False, it is well documented that other primates, burds, and other higher mammals have attributes of self awareness. Yes it is necessary for survival with long gestation and nurturing period, and as a result higher intelligence. There is a direct relationship with the size of the brain/ body ratio, intelligence and self awareness.

Do you think you know more than Harris? He didn't do his homework?

Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life doesn’t give us an inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.

First HArris never, and I mean never asserted that other animals did not have a degree of self-awareness regardless of his reasoning on why consciousness evolved. One problem this <snippet> does not present Harris's view on the subject. As far as what I have read I harris believes in evolution. Iagree and disgree with, but nonetheless Harris is presenting an odd 'argument from ignorance,' which is not science. I will gladly provide several links to support self-awareness in animals. I have done this before in the long history of this type of thread, and I will do it again.

No your religion teaches that human have something that animals don't - a rational soul - our intellect.

https://www.bahai.org/library/author...ns/9#027354461

Yes, God Created humans with a rational soul and our intellect., but the scriptures do NOT say that animals do not have a degree of self awareness. The existence of the Soul is NOT an issue here.

[seer]

No we are not DNA. We are a product of DNA.

What part of you is not DNA. Be specific please.

False, it is well documented that other primates, burds, and other higher mammals have attributes of self awareness. Yes it is necessary for survival with long gestation and nurturing period, and as a result higher intelligence. There is a direct relationship with the size of the brain/ body ratio, intelligence and self awareness.

Nonsense, there are higher primates that are not self-aware, and most creatures are not self-aware. So self-awareness if not necessary for survival. But again, how did DNA become self-aware?

You failed to provide a link for HArris. Yes, by the evidence. Harris is presenting an odd 'argument from ignorance,' which is not science. I will gladly provide several links to support self-awareness in animals. I have done this before in the long history of this type of thread, and I will do it again.

I did in post 141. And again do you think you know more about this subject than Harris?

Yes, God Created humans with a ration soul and our intellect., but the scriptures do NOT say that animals do not have a degree of self awareness. The existence of the Soul is NOT an issue here.

Good so you agree that our intellect is not the result of natural forces alone.

[seer]

It's been a while since I read it, and even if it was fresh in my mind, it would probably be a mistake for me to try to boil it down to a few words.

There is a big difference between "necessary to survive" and "having survival value".

I haven't read much of Harris, and he is certainly welcome to his opinion.

It still is a question as to when and how DNA became self aware.

[Stoic]

It still is a question as to when and how DNA became self aware.

Self-awareness isn't necessary for survival. Much less necessary for survival is an exact knowledge of how self-awareness came about.

And it's not DNA that is self-aware, any more than it is atoms that are self-aware.

[seer]

Self-awareness isn't necessary for survival. Much less necessary for survival is an exact knowledge of how self-awareness came about.

And it's not DNA that is self-aware, any more than it is atoms that are self-aware.

Are we something besides DNA? If so what?

[Stoic]

Are we something besides DNA? If so what?

Are we something besides atoms? If so what?

[shunyadragon]

What part of you is not DNA. Be specific please.

Everything, but the DNA.We are the product of our DNA


[quote] Nonsense, there are higher primates that are not self-aware, and most creatures are not self-aware. So self-awareness if not necessary for survival. But again, how did DNA become self-aware?

Again DNA is not self aware.

I did in post 141. And again do you think you know more about this subject than Harris?

No you did not. Harris did not say other animals were not self aware. Please be specific.

Good so you agree that our intellect is not the result of natural forces alone.

Natural Laws and natural flaws are created by God. Our intellect is than a product of Natural Law and natural processes.

[shunyadragon]

Self-awareness in animals. I can present many more references, and this article has many references.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=Apes%2C%20monkeys%2C%20elephants%2C%20and,tested%20through%20mirror%20self%2Drecognition.

Non-human animals

The mirror test is a simple measure of self-awareness.

Studies have been done mainly on primates to test if self-awareness is present. Apes, monkeys, elephants, and dolphins have been studied most frequently. The most relevant studies to this day that represent self-awareness in animals have been done on chimpanzees, dolphins, and magpies. Self-awareness in animals is tested through mirror self-recognition.

Animals that show mirror self-recognition undergo four stages:

social response, physical mirror inspection, repetitive mirror testing behavior, and the mark test, which involves the animals spontaneously touching a mark on their body which would have been difficult to see without the mirror.[11]

David DeGrazia states that there are three types of self-awareness in animals; the first being, bodily self-awareness. This sense of awareness allows animals to understand that they are different from the rest of the environment; it is also the reason why animals do not eat themselves. Bodily-awareness also includes proprioception and sensation. The second type of self-awareness in animals is social self-awareness. This type of awareness is seen in highly social animals and is the awareness that they have a role within themselves in order to survive. This type of awareness allows animals to interact with each other. The final type of self-awareness is introspective awareness. This awareness is responsible for animals to understand feelings, desires, and beliefs.[12]

The red-spot technique created and experimented by Gordon G. Gallup[13] studies self-awareness in animals (primates). In this technique, a red odorless spot is placed on an anesthetized primate's forehead. The spot is placed on the forehead so that it can only be seen through a mirror. Once the individual awakens, independent movements toward the spot after seeing their reflection in a mirror are observed. During the red-spot technique, after looking in the mirror, chimpanzees used their fingers to touch the red dot that was on their forehead and, after touching the red dot they would even smell their fingertips.[14] "Animals that can recognize themselves in mirrors can conceive of themselves," says Gallup. Another prime example are elephants. Three elephants were exposed to large mirrors where experimenters studied the reaction when the elephants saw their reflection. These elephants were given the "litmus mark test" in order to see whether they were aware of what they were looking at. This visible mark was applied on the elephants and the researchers reported a large progress with self-awareness. The elephants shared this success rate with other animals such as monkeys and dolphins.[15]

Chimpanzees and other apes – species which have been studied extensively – compare the most to humans with the most convincing findings and straightforward evidence in the relativity of self-awareness in animals so far.[16] Dolphins were put to a similar test and achieved the same results. Diana Reiss, a psycho-biologist at the New York Aquarium discovered that bottlenose dolphins can recognize themselves in mirrors.[17]

Researchers also used the mark test or mirror test[18] to study the magpie's self-awareness. As a majority of birds are blind below the beak, Prior et al.[16] marked the birds’ neck with three different colors: red, yellow, and black (as an imitation, as magpies are originally black). When placed in front of a mirror, the birds with the red and yellow spots began scratching at their necks, signaling the understanding of something different being on their bodies. During one trial with a mirror and a mark, three out of the five magpies showed a minimum of one example of self-directed behavior. The magpies explored the mirror by moving toward it and looking behind it. One of the magpies, Harvey, during several trials would pick up objects, pose, do some wing-flapping, all in front of the mirror with the objects in his beak. This represents a sense of self-awareness; knowing what is going on within himself and in the present. The authors suggest that self-recognition in birds and mammals may be a case of convergent evolution, where similar evolutionary pressures result in similar behaviors or traits, although they arrive at them via different routes.[19]

A few slight occurrences of behavior towards the magpie's own body happened in the trial with the black mark and the mirror. It is assumed in this study[16] that the black mark may have been slightly visible on the black feathers. Prior et al.[16] stated, "This is an indirect support for the interpretation that the behavior towards the mark region was elicited by seeing the own body in the mirror in conjunction with an unusual spot on the body."

The behaviors of the magpies clearly contrasted with no mirror present. In the no-mirror trials, a non-reflective gray plate of the same size and in the same position as the mirror was swapped in. There were not any mark directed self-behaviors when the mark was present, in color, or in black.[16] Prior's et al.[16] data quantitatively matches the findings in chimpanzees. In summary of the mark test,[16] the results show that magpies understand that a mirror image represents their own body; magpies show to have self-awareness.

© Copyright Original Source

[Tassman]

How do you know that Tass?

Natural Selection is one of the most substantiated theories in science and supported by evidence from a wide variety of scientific disciplines. Conversely there is no supportive evidence for the 'god-did-it' hypothesis.

[seer]

Are we something besides atoms? If so what?

Stoic you said: And it's not DNA that is self-aware, any more than it is atoms that are self-aware.

If it is not DNA that is self aware then what is it?

[seer]

Everything, but the DNA.We are the product of our DNA.

No we are DNA - or is there something else? Well yes according to your religion we have a soul. So we aren't just DNA.

Natural Laws and natural flaws are created by God. Our intellect is than a product of Natural Law and natural processes.

Actually no, not according to your religion. The natural process did not create the rational SOUL.Which according to your faith is the seat of human intellect.

https://www.bahai.org/beliefs/life-s.../rational-soul

[Stoic]

Stoic you said: And it's not DNA that is self-aware, any more than it is atoms that are self-aware.

If it is not DNA that is self aware then what is it?

Human beings are self-aware, and it appears that certain other animals are self-aware.

[seer]

Human beings are self-aware, and it appears that certain other animals are self-aware.

Well there certainly are lower animals that seem to be self-aware, they seem to recognize themselves in a mirror. But we don't and can't not know if it really tracks with our awareness (the whole what is it like to be a bat thing). Their inner experience is a black box in the end. But my point was about your suggestion that it wasn't DNA that became self-aware. But of course it was if you are a materialist. Strange, that...

[Stoic]

Well there certainly are lower animals that seem to be self-aware, they seem to recognize themselves in a mirror. But we don't and can't not know if it really tracks with our awareness (the whole what is it like to be a bat thing). Their inner experience is a black box in the end. But my point was about your suggestion that it wasn't DNA that became self-aware. But of course it was if you are a materialist. Strange, that...

I don't know why you are fixated on DNA. You might as well say that atoms are self-aware.

But rocks have atoms, and don't appear to be self-aware. So maybe it's not the atoms that are self-aware.

Come to think of it, plants have DNA, and don't appear to be self-aware. So maybe it's not the DNA that is self-aware.

[seer]

I don't know why you are fixated on DNA. You might as well say that atoms are self-aware.

OK, atoms are self-aware. Even more strange.

But rocks have atoms, and don't appear to be self-aware. So maybe it's not the atoms that are self-aware.

Come to think of it, plants have DNA, and don't appear to be self-aware. So maybe it's not the DNA that is self-aware.

Then what is it? If it is not DNA?