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Cogito ergo sum

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Determinism And Rationality.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    BP, are your thoughts and beliefs determined or not?
    Obviously, as I am a Determinist, I believe that my thoughts and beliefs arise deterministically.

    And if yes, determined by what?
    By the interaction of the physical components which make up the brain alongside the external stimuli which affect those components, insofar as I am aware.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      Obviously, as I am a Determinist, I believe that my thoughts and beliefs arise deterministically.

      By the interaction of the physical components which make up the brain alongside the external stimuli which affect those components, insofar as I am aware.
      And those physical components and the external stimuli that cause your thoughts and beliefs do not deal in conceptual truths - correct?
      Last edited by seer; 05-12-2020, 08:29 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        If our physical nature is deterministic then the point in my OP follows.
        Not necessarily in the extreme way you present hard determinism. Natural determinism does not 'govern and direct.' It establishes the ground rules that that all cause and effect outcomes happen within the range of possibilities determined by natural laws and the circumstances of the chain of cause and effect events.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Not necessarily in the extreme way you present hard determinism. Natural determinism does not 'govern and direct.' It establishes the ground rules that that all cause and effect outcomes happen within the range of possibilities determined by natural laws and the circumstances of the chain of cause and effect events.
          So? There may be a range of possibilities but they all are still determined...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And those physical components and the external stimuli that cause your thoughts and beliefs do not deal in conceptual truths - correct?
            Yes, in exactly the same way as the physical constituents of both water and its external stimuli do not deal in wetness. I'm still missing any sort of argument to show that it is impossible for deterministic principles to underlie cognition.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              Yes, in exactly the same way as the physical constituents of both water and its external stimuli do not deal in wetness. I'm still missing any sort of argument to show that it is impossible for deterministic principles to underlie cognition.
              No, I'm saying it is impossible for the forces of nature to create conceptual truths. How could they? Wetness is a natural condition of water, it follows from the nature of water. Conceptual truths are not integral to the forces of nature.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                No, I'm saying it is impossible for the forces of nature to create conceptual truths. How could they? Wetness is a natural condition of water, it follows from the nature of water. Conceptual truths are not integral to the forces of nature.
                Conceptual truths are a natural condition of cognition. They follow from the nature of cognition. This still doesn't imply that conceptual truths cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles any more than it implies that wetness cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles.

                We both agree that, on Determinism, the underlying deterministic principles of cognition do not exhibit conceptual truths. In exactly the same way, we also both agree that the underlying deterministic principles of water do not exhibit wetness. We seemingly agree that water's wetness can arise from underlying deterministic principles despite the fact that those principles are not wet. So my question remains: why should I think that cognition's conceptual truths cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles despite the fact that those principles are not conceptual truths?
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  Conceptual truths are a natural condition of cognition. They follow from the nature of cognition. This still doesn't imply that conceptual truths cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles any more than it implies that wetness cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles.

                  We both agree that, on Determinism, the underlying deterministic principles of cognition do not exhibit conceptual truths. In exactly the same way, we also both agree that the underlying deterministic principles of water do not exhibit wetness. We seemingly agree that water's wetness can arise from underlying deterministic principles despite the fact that those principles are not wet. So my question remains: why should I think that cognition's conceptual truths cannot arise from underlying deterministic principles despite the fact that those principles are not conceptual truths?
                  OK, try it this way, do you agree then you have no control over what your beliefs and thoughts are? That they are determined by antecedent conditions?
                  Last edited by seer; 05-12-2020, 10:56 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    OK, try it this way, do you agree then you have no control over what your beliefs and thoughts are? That they are determined by antecedent conditions?
                    Cognitive control and determinism are not mutually exclusive. My control over thoughts and beliefs is a function of my cognition. We both have already agreed that cognition-level functions are not exhibited by the deterministic principles which underlie them.

                    Incidentally, lest you think that my position is somehow motivated by atheism or naturalism, I will note that I believed exactly the same way while I was still a devoted, orthodox Christian.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      Cognitive control and determinism are not mutually exclusive. My control over thoughts and beliefs is a function of my cognition. We both have already agreed that cognition-level functions are not exhibited by the deterministic principles which underlie them.
                      I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you have freedom of thought and will?

                      Incidentally, lest you think that my position is somehow motivated by atheism or naturalism, I will note that I believed exactly the same way while I was still a devoted, orthodox Christian.
                      You must have been a Calvinist!
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you have freedom of thought and will?
                        Yep. I'm a Compatibilist. I don't believe that Determinism and Free Will are incompatible.

                        You must have been a Calvinist!
                        Nope. But I was (and remain) a B-Theorist with regards to Time. At the time, that was how I grounded my understanding of God's Omniscience.
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          Yep. I'm a Compatibilist. I don't believe that Determinism and Free Will are incompatible.
                          Sorry, Compatibilism is determinism. They just redefine free will, from the ability to do otherwise (libertarianism) to the ability to do what you want, to freely follow your inclinations and desires. My dog can do that. So your thoughts and beliefs are still the result of antecedent conditions, which kind of leaves out your cognitive abilities as a driving force. Who was it who said: "DNA just is and we dance to its music..."

                          Nope. But I was (and remain) a B-Theorist with regards to Time. At the time, that was how I grounded my understanding of God's Omniscience.
                          Yes, I'm both dead and alive, a baby and an old man. I remember our past discussion on this.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Sorry, Compatibilism is determinism. They just redefine free will, from the ability to do otherwise (libertarianism) to the ability to do what you want, to freely follow your inclinations and desires. My dog can do that.
                            So can my cats! What is your point? Are you trying to say that because other animals also exhibit free will that somehow invalidates Compatibilism?

                            So your thoughts and beliefs are still the result of antecedent conditions, which kind of leaves out your cognitive abilities as a driving force. Who was it who said: "DNA just is and we dance to its music..."
                            Even on Libertarianism, your thoughts and beliefs are still dependent upon antecedent conditions. Or are you saying that your thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with the physical world?

                            Yes, I'm both dead and alive, a baby and an old man. I remember our past discussion on this.
                            Cool. I'm happy to leave that discussion to other threads, so as not to clutter this one too greatly with peripheral topics.
                            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                              So can my cats! What is your point? Are you trying to say that because other animals also exhibit free will that somehow invalidates Compatibilism?
                              Cats would not have freedom anymore than you would. Compatibilism is simply determinism, they just redefine what is meant by free will.

                              Even on Libertarianism, your thoughts and beliefs are still dependent upon antecedent conditions. Or are you saying that your thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with the physical world?
                              Except in the Libertarian view you have the ability to do otherwise, that is not an option with determinism. And Compatibilism doesn't save it. So we are back to the specter that all your thoughts and beliefs are the result of an antecedent conditions. And these conditions dictate what we think and believe. Sock puppets...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Cats would not have freedom anymore than you would. Compatibilism is simply determinism, they just redefine what is meant by free will.
                                Yes, Compatibilism is a branch of Determinism. I'm fairly certain I've already stated as much in my earlier posts.

                                No, Compatibilists do not "redefine" free will. That would imply that there was some single, well-defined, widely accepted definition for free will which we arbitrarily overturned. That is simply not the case. Even within Libertarian philosophy, the notion of free will has been notoriously difficult to define in a cogent manner.

                                Except in the Libertarian view you have the ability to do otherwise, that is not an option with determinism. And Compatibilism doesn't save it
                                What does it mean to say one "has the ability to do otherwise?" I'm assuming you don't simply mean this epistemically, since it applies equally well on Determinism in that case. You also don't mean that the choice is completely unrestrained by outside influence, presumably. You also can't mean simply that the result of the choice in question is due to the actor performing the action, since that is the same as on Compatibilism.
                                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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