DANGIT! We derailed the thread!!!
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostP.S. (Missed this point)
Yeah, that was bad, no doubting it. The history says that the Crusader princes lost control of their troops once they gained control of the wall and stormed the gates, and the troops were apparently already caught up in so much bloodshed and chaos, that they just attacked everything in sight that wasn't them. So, yeah, it was bad, but at least the commanding Crusader princes didn't command, or condone it.
I've never been in war, especially not a Medieval war, where all the troops are tightly packed together, and fighting against another tightly packed group right in front of their faces, so I can't really say whether all the killing was out of malice, or whether it was out of confusion or panic.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI've seen one source which intimated that much of the slaughter was deliberate (so they wouldn't have to deal with a potentially hostile force at their backs once they moved the majority of their troops elsewhere to continue the attack). The source is not unimpeachable (about.history.com), but on the other hand I've seen precious few representations of the Crusader leaders as worthy of emulation. And once they got into the city (through the surrender of a tower), there seems to have been little armed resistance.
but on the other hand I've seen precious few representations of the Crusader leaders as worthy of emulation.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 07-14-2014, 04:25 AM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI've read it. The only pre-rabbinic sources cited seem to be II Maccabees and Testament of Abraham. II Maccabees doesn't explictly talk about purgatory; Testament of Abraham's dating may be post-Second Temple.
I just came across the passage (cited earlier in the Jewish Encyclopedia) in the Talmud that attributes the belief in purgatory to the House of Shammai, characteristically in opposition to the position of the House of Hillel. If this were genuinely to date back to Shammai, then it would certainly predate Jesus, who sides with the House of Shammai in some important rigorist positions, eg, divorce.
The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
“The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
“as it is written [Dan. 12: 2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.’
“Middling [people] go down to Gehenna, scream [in prayer], and rise [again], “as it is written [Zec. 13: 9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
Bavli Rosh HaShannah 16b-17a (Jacob Neusner)Last edited by robrecht; 07-12-2014, 06:50 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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