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Cogito ergo sum

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The Omnipresence of God and Creation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    And if you exist outside of the box, then you can't be said to exist inside the box. In other words, if as it is claimed that god exists outside of space time, then he can't also be said to exist within space time. If god is omnipresent then he would have to exist both inside and outside of the box, i.e. inside and outside of space time.
    space and time are smaller than God. Think of the box (space and time and everything in the universe) as being in God's tummy. If you are inside the box, you are still inside God. Yeah bad analogy, but you get the idea.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      space and time are smaller than God. Think of the box (space and time and everything in the universe) as being in God's tummy. If you are inside the box, you are still inside God. Yeah bad analogy, but you get the idea.
      And how can something, a universe say, be inside of a another thing, if that other thing is a simple, and indivisable thing? Take the box as an analogy, if the box were solid thoughout, a cube say, and indivisible, how could somehting be in the cube without displacing the part of the cube wherein the thing within it sits. Also, how can a thing be both inside of space-time and outside of space time?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        And how can something, a universe say, be inside of a another thing, if that other thing is a simple, and indivisable thing? Take the box as an analogy, if the box were solid thoughout, a cube say, and indivisible, how could somehting be in the cube without displacing the part of the cube wherein the thing within it sits. Also, how can a thing be both inside of space-time and outside of space time?
        ...especially if that thing is supposed to be non-spatiotemporal.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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        • #19
          I think instead of trying to define exactly how God's omnipresence works, it's easiest to just state that there is nothing in reality that escapes God's awareness and "reach". Whatever else God's omnipresence implies, at least it implies those two things. It seems to me that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then His omnipresence follows logically from those two attributes, atleast if it's defined minimally, as above.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            I think instead of trying to define exactly how God's omnipresence works, it's easiest to just state that there is nothing in reality that escapes God's awareness and "reach". Whatever else God's omnipresence implies, at least it implies those two things. It seems to me that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then His omnipresence follows logically from those two attributes, atleast if it's defined minimally, as above.
            I think that seems very plausible. The only way I could see in which this wouldn't follow logically would be if we are taking a logically-possible definition of omnipotence and if there existed something which was logically impossible for God to affect-- something like the Platonic universals, perhaps. Of course, if we limit the scope of omnipresence to spatiotemporal reality rather than all of reality, it becomes fairly difficult to imagine something which would be logically impossible for God to affect.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              And how can something, a universe say, be inside of a another thing, if that other thing is a simple, and indivisable thing? Take the box as an analogy, if the box were solid thoughout, a cube say, and indivisible, how could somehting be in the cube without displacing the part of the cube wherein the thing within it sits. Also, how can a thing be both inside of space-time and outside of space time?
              There is such a thing as taking an analogy too far. I already admitted it was not a great analogy. I am sure you understand what I was trying to explain, though.

              Look at a an object on your desk. Would you say that space-time permeates that box? Would you then say that the box IS space-time?

              Next, will you complain because the universe isn't cubicle?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                There is such a thing as taking an analogy too far. I already admitted it was not a great analogy. I am sure you understand what I was trying to explain, though.

                Look at a an object on your desk. Would you say that space-time permeates that box? Would you then say that the box IS space-time?

                Next, will you complain because the universe isn't cubicle?
                Yes, I understand that the analogy is a poor one, but it's the best I can do. God though would be simple and indivisable, not like an empty box, more like the inside of the box, which is why I used the equally clumsy analogy of a solid cube. So how can an object be within the inside of the box, inside the indivisable god, and not be part of god?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yes, I understand that the analogy is a poor one, but it's the best I can do. God though would be simple and indivisable, not like an empty box, more like the inside of the box, which is why I used the equally clumsy analogy of a solid cube. So how can an object be within the inside of the box, inside the indivisable god, and not be part of god?
                  read the rest of my post Jim. I explained it.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    There is such a thing as taking an analogy too far. I already admitted it was not a great analogy. I am sure you understand what I was trying to explain, though.

                    Look at a an object on your desk. Would you say that space-time permeates that box? Would you then say that the box IS space-time?

                    Next, will you complain because the universe isn't cubicle?

                    Is this still part of your office analogy? Do you mean that believers in multi-verses are in the cubicle next door?
                    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                      Is this still part of your office analogy? Do you mean that believers in multi-verses are in the cubicle next door?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
                        Greetings,

                        I have a 'simple' question.

                        I have a clear memory from when I was a kid, maybe 6~8 age. I was trying to work out in my childlike mind how could God be everywhere at once. Obviously I had an extremely basic concept of omnipresence. I formed the idea that perhaps when God created the universe, including us, He had merely to imagine it, all inside of his head. Because God was so clever, mere figments of his imagination could easily actually exist and experience life, etc.

                        Years later, but also years ago, I stumbled upon something on the interwebs which described this concept of all of creation being contained 'inside' God. It was, of course, heretical, or at least non-orthodox, but it also had a name. Does anyone have an idea of what that name might be? (Aside from 'Bonkers')

                        Thank you
                        Manky
                        Omnipresence is an extension of God's omniscience and sustaining power, so He's everywhere in the sense that He is cognizant of and everywhere upholds everything in existence. He isn't some permeating Star Wars like force.
                        Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
                        George Horne

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