Originally posted by eschaton
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Why prophecy can't be taken literally
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI was trying to hone in on what you meant, until you made it a bit more clear in post#13. At first I thought you meant all prophecy was merely allegory (not be taken as a literal event). But it seems you mean something different.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
You're saying that the story of Abraham and his son is not literal.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostYou're saying it again. Now you're saying allegory is not a literal event.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
You're saying that the story of Abraham and his son is not literal.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostWhat I thought you were saying in the OP was that all prophecy is only allegory, thus should not be taken as literal events. My belief is that allegory and parables are not literal events but used to convey a message, therefore this is NOT what prophecy is. When you brought up Paul's use of "allegory" (of course this is the English translation of that Greek word), he obviously wasn't saying the story of Abraham wasn't true. That's not what you're saying is it? Paul meant that the REAL event of Abraham and his children also represented a future event, so in that sense a REAL event was allegorical (again, this is the English translation of that word) of a future event to come.
allégoreó: to speak allegorically
Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: allégoreó
Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak allegorically
Usage: I speak allegorically.
The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?
SeanD: Or the prophecy in the Jeremiah of the rebuilding of Jerusalem and second temple*literally*fulfilled, down to the exact days. Or the prophecy about Tyre in Isaiah*literally*fulfilled exactly the way it was prophesied. In fact, a lot of the prophecies were so accurately fulfilled you have some skeptics that try to argue they were written after the fact.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostThe Greek word.
allégoreó: to speak allegorically
Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: allégoreó
Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak allegorically
Usage: I speak allegorically.
The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?
Even if I give you partial credit for Isaiah 53, we still have to deal with Jeremiah 25 and Isaiah 23 which you said were absolutely literally fulfilled. The Pulpit commentary shows otherwise. Remember that premillennialism says that all OT prophecies should be presumed literal. We're having trouble finding one.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostOkay, well, then I guess I'm done. I suspect I misunderstood what you were saying in the OP, but I'm not clear what exactly you're arguing. My position is that prophecy is not allegory. Allegory is fictional. Prophecy is about real future events yet to come. Sometimes real events might also represent or reflect a future event, so in that sense I guess you call it "allegorical," but that isn't typically how I see an allegorical biblical story.
Typology (19th century)
2. the study and interpretation of types and symbols, originally especially in the Bible.
My position is that prophecy is given in allegorical language, although I use the same definition for the word allegory (metaphoric but not necessarily fictional) that was used in earlier times (like Paul) so you're right about that.
You say that prophecy isn't an allegory, but I haven't seen an example. Tell me when this literal prophecy was fulfilled.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostThe Greek word.
allégoreó: to speak allegorically
Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: allégoreó
Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak allegorically
Usage: I speak allegorically.
The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?
Even if I give you partial credit for Isaiah 53, we still have to deal with Jeremiah 25 and Isaiah 23 which you said were absolutely literally fulfilled. The Pulpit commentary shows otherwise. Remember that premillennialism says that all OT prophecies should be presumed literal. We're having trouble finding one.
And sometimes, X was prophesied, and Not-X took place. But that is a different issue. As is premillennialism.
STM this discussion has been confused by the use of the word “literal” - one suspects it is being used in different senses by different people.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-21-2020, 03:53 PM.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostThe predictions of the fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel and Jeremiah seem to qualify - X was prophesied, X took place.
And sometimes, X was prophesied, and Not-X took place. But that is a different issue. As is premillennialism.
STM this discussion has been confused by the use of the word “literal” - one suspects it is being used in different senses by different people.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostThe prophets of Israel were communicated to in visions and dreams. Moses was spoken to plainly. That means the dreams and visions have to be interpreted, they are not literal, plain speech. There is no indication that dreams and visions are different in the NT. They cannot be taken literally. That's why systems that claim to take the Bible, or at least prophecy, literally are wrong.
Moses explained how to interpret symbols in his psalm, Psalm 90. He compares creation symbolism to human life.
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Originally posted by Maranatha View PostIn looking at your posts in this thread a question comes to mind, who do you believe has this literal interpretation you are speaking against?
6. He said, "Please listen to My words. If there be prophets among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. ו. וַיֹּאמֶר שִׁמְעוּ נָא דְבָרָי אִם יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֲכֶם יְ־הֹוָ־ה בַּמַּרְאָה אֵלָיו אֶתְוַדָּע בַּחֲלוֹם אֲדַבֶּר בּוֹ:
Please listen to My words: [The term] נָא always denotes a request. - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:6] שמעו נא דברי: אין נא אלא לשון בקשה:
If there be prophets among you: If you have prophets…. — [Targum Onkelos] אם יהיה נביאכם: אם יהיו לכם נביאים:
[I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision: The Divine Presence of My Name is not revealed to him with distinct clarity, but in a dream or a vision. - [Tanchuma Tzav 13] ה' במראה אליו אתודע: שכינת שמי אין נגלית עליו באספקלריא המאירה אלא בחלום וחזיון:
7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house. ז. לֹא כֵן עַבְדִּי מֹשֶׁה בְּכָל בֵּיתִי נֶאֱמָן הוּא:
8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ? ח. פֶּה אֶל פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר בּוֹ וּמַרְאֶה וְלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יְ־הֹוָ־ה יַבִּיט וּמַדּוּעַ לֹא יְרֵאתֶם לְדַבֵּר בְּעַבְדִּי בְמֹשֶׁה:
Mouth to mouth: I told him to separate from his wife (Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13). Where did I tell him this? At Sinai; “Go and tell them, ‘Return to your tents,’ but you, remain here with Me” (Deut. 5:27). - [See Shab. 87a] פה אל פה: אמרתי לו לפרוש מן האשה. והיכן אמרתי לו, בסיני (דברים ה, כז) לך אמור להם שובו לכם לאהליכם, ואתה פה עמוד עמדי:
in a vision but not in riddles: “A vision” refers to the vision of speech, for I express My communication to Him with absolute clarity, and I do not obscure it with riddles in the way it was said to Ezekiel, “Present a riddle” (Ezek. 17:2). I might think that it refers to the vision of the Divine Presence [itself]! Scripture therefore teaches, “You are not able to see My face” (Exod. 33:23). - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13] ומראה ולא בחידות: מראה זה מראה דבור, שאני מפרש לו דבורי במראת פנים שבו ואיני סותמו לו בחידות, כענין שנאמר ליחזקאל (יחזקאל יז, ב) חוד חידה וגו', יכול מראה שכינה, תלמוד לומר (שמות לג, כ) לא תוכל לראות את פני:
and He beholds the image of the Lord: This refers to a vision of the “back,” as it says,“and you will see My back” (Exod. 33:23). - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13] ותמנת ה' יביט: זה מראה אחורים, כענין שנאמר (שמות לג, כג) וראית את אחורי:
against my servant Moses: Heb. בְּעַבְדִי בְמשֶׁה, lit., against My servant, against Moses. Scripture does not say בְּעַבְדִי משֶׁה, against My servant Moses, but בְּעַבְדִי בְמשֶׁה, against My servant, against Moses . [The meaning is thus:] against My servant even if he were not Moses, and against Moses, even if he were not My servant, you should certainly have feared him, and all the more so since he is My servant, and the servant of the king is a king himself! You should have said, “The King does not love him for nothing.” If you claim that I am unaware of his actions, this [statement] is worse than your previous one. — [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13]
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostWhy do I understand Psalm 90 in a literal way? It is a Psalm of Moses whom God spoke to without similitude or "dark speeches." It explains symbolism rather than being a prophecy. It is a psalm though, so it is sort of like a song. That doesn't mean it can't be understood in a literal way. Why do I understand Num 12:6-8 literally? It is really not a prophecy. It is an explanation from God. I discovered I'm not the only one that understands it that way. I mentioned Maimonides (1138-1204) who understood it that way. Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105), who some consider the greatest exegete, made the following commentary:
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Originally posted by Maranatha View PostPerhaps you didn't understand. What people, or groups of people, hold to this literal interpretation that you believe is too literal.
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I believe prophecy will be fulfilled and is fulfilled every day in the hearts of believers (2 Pet 1:19, Isa 9:2). As far as some sort of earthly geo/political fulfillment? Probably, but it is better to have faith, live righteously, and have a wait and see attitude. I would look to verses such as 2 Tim 3:1 and 1 Pet 1:20. We've been in the last days since the advent of Christ.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostI believe prophecy will be fulfilled and is fulfilled every day in the hearts of believers (2 Pet 1:19, Isa 9:2). As far as some sort of earthly geo/political fulfillment? Probably, but it is better to have faith, live righteously, and have a wait and see attitude. I would look to verses such as 2 Tim 3:1 and 1 Pet 1:20. We've been in the last days since the advent of Christ.
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