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Why prophecy can't be taken literally

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  • #16
    Originally posted by eschaton View Post
    Sean,
    You said:


    That's why I brought it up. Now it seems you're saying something else.
    I was trying to hone in on what you meant, until you made it a bit more clear in post#13. At first I thought you meant all prophecy was merely allegory (not be taken as a literal event). But it seems you mean something different.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I was trying to hone in on what you meant, until you made it a bit more clear in post#13. At first I thought you meant all prophecy was merely allegory (not be taken as a literal event). But it seems you mean something different.
      You're saying it again. Now you're saying allegory is not a literal event.

      Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
      23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
      24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

      You're saying that the story of Abraham and his son is not literal.
      The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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      • #18
        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
        You're saying it again. Now you're saying allegory is not a literal event.

        Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
        23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
        24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

        You're saying that the story of Abraham and his son is not literal.
        What I thought you were saying in the OP was that all prophecy is only allegory, thus should not be taken as literal events. My belief is that allegory and parables are not literal events but used to convey a message, therefore this is NOT what prophecy is. When you brought up Paul's use of "allegory" (of course this is the English translation of that Greek word), he obviously wasn't saying the story of Abraham wasn't true. That's not what you're saying is it? Paul meant that the REAL event of Abraham and his children also represented a future event, so in that sense a REAL event was allegorical (again, this is the English translation of that word) of a future event to come.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          What I thought you were saying in the OP was that all prophecy is only allegory, thus should not be taken as literal events. My belief is that allegory and parables are not literal events but used to convey a message, therefore this is NOT what prophecy is. When you brought up Paul's use of "allegory" (of course this is the English translation of that Greek word), he obviously wasn't saying the story of Abraham wasn't true. That's not what you're saying is it? Paul meant that the REAL event of Abraham and his children also represented a future event, so in that sense a REAL event was allegorical (again, this is the English translation of that word) of a future event to come.
          The Greek word.
          allégoreó: to speak allegorically
          Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
          Part of Speech: Verb
          Transliteration: allégoreó
          Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
          Definition: to speak allegorically
          Usage: I speak allegorically.

          The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?

          SeanD: Or the prophecy in the Jeremiah of the rebuilding of Jerusalem and second temple*literally*fulfilled, down to the exact days. Or the prophecy about Tyre in Isaiah*literally*fulfilled exactly the way it was prophesied. In fact, a lot of the prophecies were so accurately fulfilled you have some skeptics that try to argue they were written after the fact.
          Even if I give you partial credit for Isaiah 53, we still have to deal with Jeremiah 25 and Isaiah 23 which you said were absolutely literally fulfilled. The Pulpit commentary shows otherwise. Remember that premillennialism says that all OT prophecies should be presumed literal. We're having trouble finding one.
          The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by eschaton View Post
            The Greek word.
            allégoreó: to speak allegorically
            Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
            Part of Speech: Verb
            Transliteration: allégoreó
            Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
            Definition: to speak allegorically
            Usage: I speak allegorically.

            The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?



            Even if I give you partial credit for Isaiah 53, we still have to deal with Jeremiah 25 and Isaiah 23 which you said were absolutely literally fulfilled. The Pulpit commentary shows otherwise. Remember that premillennialism says that all OT prophecies should be presumed literal. We're having trouble finding one.
            Okay, well, then I guess I'm done. I suspect I misunderstood what you were saying in the OP, but I'm not clear what exactly you're arguing. My position is that prophecy is not allegory. Allegory is fictional. Prophecy is about real future events yet to come. Sometimes real events might also represent or reflect a future event, so in that sense I guess you call it "allegorical," but that isn't typically how I see an allegorical biblical story.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              Okay, well, then I guess I'm done. I suspect I misunderstood what you were saying in the OP, but I'm not clear what exactly you're arguing. My position is that prophecy is not allegory. Allegory is fictional. Prophecy is about real future events yet to come. Sometimes real events might also represent or reflect a future event, so in that sense I guess you call it "allegorical," but that isn't typically how I see an allegorical biblical story.


              Typology (19th century)
              2. the study and interpretation of types and symbols, originally especially in the Bible.

              My position is that prophecy is given in allegorical language, although I use the same definition for the word allegory (metaphoric but not necessarily fictional) that was used in earlier times (like Paul) so you're right about that.

              You say that prophecy isn't an allegory, but I haven't seen an example. Tell me when this literal prophecy was fulfilled.

              Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
              Whenever it was it wasn't a pretty sight.
              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                The Greek word.
                allégoreó: to speak allegorically
                Original Word: ἀλληγορέω
                Part of Speech: Verb
                Transliteration: allégoreó
                Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-gor-eh'-o)
                Definition: to speak allegorically
                Usage: I speak allegorically.

                The meaning of allegory has changed in the last few hundred years. Some definitions would agree with you, but not all. Types were part of allegory in the ancient world as you can see from Paul's usage. They became divided about the 18th century. Why does the Bible say that prophecies are not literal as I have repeatedly pointed out?



                Even if I give you partial credit for Isaiah 53, we still have to deal with Jeremiah 25 and Isaiah 23 which you said were absolutely literally fulfilled. The Pulpit commentary shows otherwise. Remember that premillennialism says that all OT prophecies should be presumed literal. We're having trouble finding one.
                The predictions of the fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel and Jeremiah seem to qualify - X was prophesied, X took place.
                And sometimes, X was prophesied, and Not-X took place. But that is a different issue. As is premillennialism.
                STM this discussion has been confused by the use of the word “literal” - one suspects it is being used in different senses by different people.
                Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-21-2020, 03:53 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                  The predictions of the fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel and Jeremiah seem to qualify - X was prophesied, X took place.
                  And sometimes, X was prophesied, and Not-X took place. But that is a different issue. As is premillennialism.
                  STM this discussion has been confused by the use of the word “literal” - one suspects it is being used in different senses by different people.
                  In post #9 I gave the definition of literal that I was going by and seadD didn't dispute it. In post #11 I took a look at X and concluded that X didn't occur in a literal way, and that wasn't disputed either.
                  The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                    The prophets of Israel were communicated to in visions and dreams. Moses was spoken to plainly. That means the dreams and visions have to be interpreted, they are not literal, plain speech. There is no indication that dreams and visions are different in the NT. They cannot be taken literally. That's why systems that claim to take the Bible, or at least prophecy, literally are wrong.

                    Moses explained how to interpret symbols in his psalm, Psalm 90. He compares creation symbolism to human life.
                    In looking at your posts in this thread a question comes to mind, who do you believe has this literal interpretation you are speaking against?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                      In looking at your posts in this thread a question comes to mind, who do you believe has this literal interpretation you are speaking against?
                      Why do I understand Psalm 90 in a literal way? It is a Psalm of Moses whom God spoke to without similitude or "dark speeches." It explains symbolism rather than being a prophecy. It is a psalm though, so it is sort of like a song. That doesn't mean it can't be understood in a literal way. Why do I understand Num 12:6-8 literally? It is really not a prophecy. It is an explanation from God. I discovered I'm not the only one that understands it that way. I mentioned Maimonides (1138-1204) who understood it that way. Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105), who some consider the greatest exegete, made the following commentary:

                      6. He said, "Please listen to My words. If there be prophets among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. ו. וַיֹּאמֶר שִׁמְעוּ נָא דְבָרָי אִם יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֲכֶם יְ־הֹוָ־ה בַּמַּרְאָה אֵלָיו אֶתְוַדָּע בַּחֲלוֹם אֲדַבֶּר בּוֹ:
                      Please listen to My words: [The term] נָא always denotes a request. - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:6] שמעו נא דברי: אין נא אלא לשון בקשה:
                      If there be prophets among you: If you have prophets…. — [Targum Onkelos] אם יהיה נביאכם: אם יהיו לכם נביאים:
                      [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision: The Divine Presence of My Name is not revealed to him with distinct clarity, but in a dream or a vision. - [Tanchuma Tzav 13] ה' במראה אליו אתודע: שכינת שמי אין נגלית עליו באספקלריא המאירה אלא בחלום וחזיון:
                      7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house. ז. לֹא כֵן עַבְדִּי מֹשֶׁה בְּכָל בֵּיתִי נֶאֱמָן הוּא:
                      8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ? ח. פֶּה אֶל פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר בּוֹ וּמַרְאֶה וְלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יְ־הֹוָ־ה יַבִּיט וּמַדּוּעַ לֹא יְרֵאתֶם לְדַבֵּר בְּעַבְדִּי בְמֹשֶׁה:
                      Mouth to mouth: I told him to separate from his wife (Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13). Where did I tell him this? At Sinai; “Go and tell them, ‘Return to your tents,’ but you, remain here with Me” (Deut. 5:27). - [See Shab. 87a] פה אל פה: אמרתי לו לפרוש מן האשה. והיכן אמרתי לו, בסיני (דברים ה, כז) לך אמור להם שובו לכם לאהליכם, ואתה פה עמוד עמדי:
                      in a vision but not in riddles: “A vision” refers to the vision of speech, for I express My communication to Him with absolute clarity, and I do not obscure it with riddles in the way it was said to Ezekiel, “Present a riddle” (Ezek. 17:2). I might think that it refers to the vision of the Divine Presence [itself]! Scripture therefore teaches, “You are not able to see My face” (Exod. 33:23). - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13] ומראה ולא בחידות: מראה זה מראה דבור, שאני מפרש לו דבורי במראת פנים שבו ואיני סותמו לו בחידות, כענין שנאמר ליחזקאל (יחזקאל יז, ב) חוד חידה וגו', יכול מראה שכינה, תלמוד לומר (שמות לג, כ) לא תוכל לראות את פני:
                      and He beholds the image of the Lord: This refers to a vision of the “back,” as it says,“and you will see My back” (Exod. 33:23). - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13] ותמנת ה' יביט: זה מראה אחורים, כענין שנאמר (שמות לג, כג) וראית את אחורי:
                      against my servant Moses: Heb. בְּעַבְדִי בְמשֶׁה, lit., against My servant, against Moses. Scripture does not say בְּעַבְדִי משֶׁה, against My servant Moses, but בְּעַבְדִי בְמשֶׁה, against My servant, against Moses . [The meaning is thus:] against My servant even if he were not Moses, and against Moses, even if he were not My servant, you should certainly have feared him, and all the more so since he is My servant, and the servant of the king is a king himself! You should have said, “The King does not love him for nothing.” If you claim that I am unaware of his actions, this [statement] is worse than your previous one. — [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:8, Tanchuma Tzav 13]
                      The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                        Why do I understand Psalm 90 in a literal way? It is a Psalm of Moses whom God spoke to without similitude or "dark speeches." It explains symbolism rather than being a prophecy. It is a psalm though, so it is sort of like a song. That doesn't mean it can't be understood in a literal way. Why do I understand Num 12:6-8 literally? It is really not a prophecy. It is an explanation from God. I discovered I'm not the only one that understands it that way. I mentioned Maimonides (1138-1204) who understood it that way. Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105), who some consider the greatest exegete, made the following commentary:
                        Perhaps you didn't understand. What people, or groups of people, hold to this literal interpretation that you believe is too literal.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                          Perhaps you didn't understand. What people, or groups of people, hold to this literal interpretation that you believe is too literal.
                          Premillennialism holds to a literal interpretation of prophecy. I gave a link in #7.
                          The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                            Premillennialism holds to a literal interpretation of prophecy. I gave a link in #7.
                            Ok.

                            Do you believe there is prophecy yet to be fulfilled?

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                            • #29
                              I believe prophecy will be fulfilled and is fulfilled every day in the hearts of believers (2 Pet 1:19, Isa 9:2). As far as some sort of earthly geo/political fulfillment? Probably, but it is better to have faith, live righteously, and have a wait and see attitude. I would look to verses such as 2 Tim 3:1 and 1 Pet 1:20. We've been in the last days since the advent of Christ.
                              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                                I believe prophecy will be fulfilled and is fulfilled every day in the hearts of believers (2 Pet 1:19, Isa 9:2). As far as some sort of earthly geo/political fulfillment? Probably, but it is better to have faith, live righteously, and have a wait and see attitude. I would look to verses such as 2 Tim 3:1 and 1 Pet 1:20. We've been in the last days since the advent of Christ.
                                Thanks for your feedback. That sounds pretty reasonable.

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