Dems More Fearful Of Virus...

[NorrinRadd]

People have a tendency to get things out of proportion. It is natural to fear the unknown and over react if we believe the boogeyman is going to get us.

It is also natural for the media to hype or exaggerate things to attract an audience, and thus satisfy their sponsors.

Democrats are more inclined to follow the media and buy into the hype. The earth is overheating and we're all going to die, the ozone hole will grow until we all have cancer, an asteroid is going to hit us, Asian hornets are going to murder us, blah blah blah. This pandemic is bad, yes, but not worth screaming and running around in circles over. History will look back one day and ask why there were so many snowflakes during this era.

I've been hoping for the asteroid since, what was it, 2012?

Every so often, I'll post something about Planet Nibiru, or whatever it's called, on Facebook. It freaks out one of my friends. (Carol, whom you may remember from the previous boards we frequented.)

[Starlight]

Says the people willing to accept totalitarian rule, to ‘stop’ a virus.

Supporting something for a couple of months for a specific purpose during a global emergency is quite different to "accept[ing] totalitarian rule" for life or in general.

I would say there are two main things guiding people's response to this virus:

1. Conspiracy theorism and science-denial among right-wingers. Due to a high-buy-in to conspiracy theories of every kind among many on the US right-wing, they are in denial about basic facts about the virus, rejecting information given to them by health professionals etc.

2. Prioritising the Economy vs Human Life. With these lockdowns, there is an obvious trade-off between increased/decreased economic activity, and saving/losing human lives to the virus. I am seeing left-wingers around the world be far more interested in valuing human lives over the economy, and right-wingers around the world being far more interested in prioritising economic activity over human life.

While I have seen a very small number of conservatives paying lip-service to concerns around totalitarianism with regard to the current situation, I currently don't believe they actually seriously genuinely have those concerns with regard to this situation, and think they're just using those as talking points in order to try and further justify positions they've adopted due to #1 and #2.

[Starlight]

Which is ironic considering history is chock full of scientific predictions of global gloom and doom that never happened

I'm a scientist with an interest in history... and I can't think of a single one. What on earth are you talking about?

The predictions of doom that history is full of are religious ones, with religious people predicting the end of the world with extreme regularity. IIRC one Christian managed to write 3 different books within 10 years predicting the return of Christ at specific dates when each of his previous dates didn't come to pass. Christians have been enthusiastically predicting doom since Jesus gave those prophesies in the gospels... not to mention the books of Revelation and Daniel.

[seanD]

I'm a scientist with an interest in history... and I can't think of a single one. What on earth are you talking about?

The predictions of doom that history is full of are religious ones, with religious people predicting the end of the world with extreme regularity. IIRC one Christian managed to write 3 different books within 10 years predicting the return of Christ at specific dates when each of his previous dates didn't come to pass. Christians have been enthusiastically predicting doom since Jesus gave those prophesies in the gospels... not to mention the books of Revelation and Daniel.

Your claim that there's been no scientific predictions of global gloom and doom is laughable. Scientists have been making such false predictions for like the last 100 years. And it is indeed true what you say about religion. The difference is that religious predictions of gloom and doom affect only small niche groups of the world's population. In fact, even when the predictions are Christian-base, they rarely ever affect even Christianity as a whole outside a very tiny subset group. Contrast that with scientific predictions of gloom and doom that affect much larger population swaths, including lawmakers and those in governmental power. In this particular pandemic, the gloom and doom models affected the entire world.

[oxmixmudd]

Says the people willing to accept totalitarian rule, to ‘stop’ a virus.

no-one is 'accepting totalitarian rule'. What is being accepted is what is necessary to limit the loss of life due to the virus. This is no different than the rationing required during WWII, the mandatory vaccination program for smallpox and polio, imposed quarantines for Tuberculosis, or even the draft. Being required to behave in a way that benefits - or more to the point - that does not endanger society as a whole is itself a requirement for civilization to survive. "Freedom" does not translate to "Freedom without responsibility". The latter is called "Anarchy".

[Starlight]

Scientists have been making such false predictions for like the last 100 years.

That's a lot more of a limited timeframe than the few thousand years that Christians have been making false predictions during. You still haven't actually given examples, other than the current pandemic which I regard largely as an example of scientists getting it right. So now I'm assuming in your mind the 'false' predictions are the times scientists have been correct, such as climate change etc.

[lilpixieofterror]

Supporting something for a couple of months for a specific purpose during a global emergency is quite different to "accept[ing] totalitarian rule" for life or in general.

Models which, have proven inaccurate and flat out wrong, but you’re welcome to live under an ever changing goalpost, if you so desire, but I’ll pass.

I would say there are two main things guiding people's response to this virus:

1. Conspiracy theorism and science-denial among right-wingers. Due to a high-buy-in to conspiracy theories of every kind among many on the US right-wing, they are in denial about basic facts about the virus, rejecting information given to them by health professionals etc.

You mean the same models, proven to be inaccurate or the changing goalpost from ‘flatten the curve’ to ‘we need to hide away till a vaccine is developed’? That kind of ‘science’ is what you’re talking about? Besides, the conspiracy theory that Flynn was set up, turned out to be dead accurate. Well, the idea of a power grab isn’t as far fetched.

2. Prioritising the Economy vs Human Life. With these lockdowns, there is an obvious trade-off between increased/decreased economic activity, and saving/losing human lives to the virus. I am seeing left-wingers around the world be far more interested in valuing human lives over the economy, and right-wingers around the world being far more interested in prioritising economic activity over human life.

So we need to ignore:
Increases in suicides
Increases in child abuse
Increases in spouse abuse
Increases in mental health problems

All resulting from economic depression and stay at home orders. Let’s ignore those details, so you can feel good. K?

While I have seen a very small number of conservatives paying lip-service to concerns around totalitarianism with regard to the current situation, I currently don't believe they actually seriously genuinely have those concerns with regard to this situation, and think they're just using those as talking points in order to try and further justify positions they've adopted due to #1 and #2.

Your black/white thinking process shines through again. Hey, what a few more deaths through suicide, economic destruction, child abuse, and spouse abuse? It makes Starlight feel good and feeling good is all that matters.

[seanD]

That's a lot more of a limited timeframe than the few thousand years that Christians have been making false predictions during. You still haven't actually given examples, other than the current pandemic which I regard largely as an example of scientists getting it right. So now I'm assuming in your mind the 'false' predictions are the times scientists have been correct, such as climate change etc.

I don't need to give examples because everyone knows this. You're just playing dumb because it hurts your feelings as a scientist. And again, Christian predictions of gloom and doom are rarely taken seriously outside the subset group espousing those predictions, and they rarely -- if EVER -- influence government policy. Scientific false predictions actually have an affect on our lives.

[lilpixieofterror]

That's a lot more of a limited timeframe than the few thousand years that Christians have been making false predictions during. You still haven't actually given examples, other than the current pandemic which I regard largely as an example of scientists getting it right. So now I'm assuming in your mind the 'false' predictions are the times scientists have been correct, such as climate change etc.

Does the sun orbit the earth?
Does foul air cause disease?
Are there more than 4 elements?
Can you turn lead into gold?

[Starlight]

Being required to behave in a way that benefits society as a whole is itself a requirement for civilization to survive.

Conservativism used to be focused on precisely this - preserving the structures in society that were viewed as core to the preservation of the civilisation, with the view that what was good for the group as a whole was therefore also good for the individuals in it.

Whereas, whatever this new thinking is that is trying to pass for conservatism, it doesn't seem to value that at all. Maximising individual selfishness appears to be its one and only goal. No interest in aggregate freedom or aggregate welfare. No interest in the structures and traditions of society. Just a self-based interest in maximising one's own freedom (& wealth & power & fame). Maximal selfishness is somehow now a virtue?! Apparently the only virtue?! Very Ayn Randian. Very Trumpian. Very incompatible with Christianity, yet apparently embraced by massive numbers of US 'Christians'.

[oxmixmudd]

Your claim that there's been no scientific predictions of global gloom and doom is laughable. Scientists have been making such false predictions for like the last 100 years. And it is indeed true what you say about religion. The difference is that religious predictions of gloom and doom affect only small niche groups of the world's population. In fact, even when the predictions are Christian-base, they rarely ever affect even Christianity as a whole outside a very tiny subset group. Contrast that with scientific predictions of gloom and doom that affect much larger population swaths, including lawmakers and those in governmental power. In this particular pandemic, the gloom and doom models affected the entire world.

Don't be ridiculous. Half the nutter conspiracy theories on the internet are based on Christian themed eschatology. There is a constant underlying fear that virtually every movement towards world peace is the beginning of the end, setting the stage for the anti-Christ, and most such movements are heavily resisted by Christians.

Right now there is a massive undercurrent against efforts by bill gates and the gates foundation to find a vaccine by Christians claiming he is some sort of anti-Christ.

The issue is ignorance. And fear often comes from ignorance. And unfortunately, many Christian organizations encourage ignorance (I really, really wish it were not so, and I do not believe for a minute this is intrinsic to Christian faith itself).

Fear is one half of the problem. Ignorance the other half. To the extent that Fear and Ignorance drive ANY endeavor, be it science or religion or politics, that same fear and ignorance will produce a destructive outcome wherever it is found. Christ offers the only True reason not to be filled with fear - but very few Christians seem to have actually understood what that means.

[lilpixieofterror]

no-one is 'accepting totalitarian rule'. What is being accepted is what is necessary to limit the loss of life due to the virus. This is no different than the rationing required during WWII, the mandatory vaccination program for smallpox and polio, imposed quarantines for Tuberculosis, or even the draft. Being required to behave in a way that benefits - or more to the point - that does not endanger society as a whole is itself a requirement for civilization to survive. "Freedom" does not translate to "Freedom without responsibility". The latter is called "Anarchy".

I don’t recall anyone being arrested for opening a barber shop, during WW2, you?

[Starlight]

Does the sun orbit the earth?
Does foul air cause disease?
Are there more than 4 elements?
Can you turn lead into gold?

Those aren't example of "scientific predictions of global gloom and doom that never happened" (Sean's claim).

[seanD]

Don't be ridiculous. Half the nutter conspiracy theories on the internet are based on Christian themed eschatology. There is a constant underlying fear that virtually every movement towards world peace is the beginning of the end, setting the stage for the anti-Christ, and most such movements are heavily resisted by Christians.

Right now there is a massive undercurrent against efforts by bill gates and the gates foundation to find a vaccine by Christians claiming he is some sort of anti-Christ.

The issue is ignorance. And fear often comes from ignorance. And unfortunately, many Christian organizations encourage ignorance (I really, really wish it were not so, and I do not believe for a minute this is intrinsic to Christian faith itself).

Fear is one half of the problem. Ignorance the other half. To the extent that Fear and Ignorance drive ANY endeavor, be it science or religion or politics, that same fear and ignorance will produce a destructive outcome wherever it is found. Christ offers the only True reason not to be filled with fear - but very few Christians seem to have actually understood what that means.

The massive undercurrent against Gates is not just from Christians, I can assure you. And the fact you resort to that type of sheer dishonesty just to smear Christians really makes me doubt you're even a Christian. And I've never made that accusation about anyone I can ever remember, so it isn't a light accusation.

[oxmixmudd]

I don’t recall anyone being arrested for opening a barber shop, during WW2, you?

Was there a pandemic that required businesses to close in WWII?