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Fiscal Responsibility is Dead

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  • Fiscal Responsibility is Dead

    This bill, from the Democrats, is a travesty. $3T more borrowed from our grandchildren and their children to make things more comfortable for us in a time of struggle. I hope there are enough politicians to stand against this kind of waste and for a return to fiscal responsibility - but I suspect there are not. In a time of crisis, in a culture of entitlement, this has about as much chance of failing completely as the so-called "Patriot Act" did at a time when we were attacked.

    There are times when I wonder when/if common sense will ever return to this country.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    This bill, from the Democrats, is a travesty. $3T more borrowed from our grandchildren and their children to make things more comfortable for us in a time of struggle. I hope there are enough politicians to stand against this kind of waste and for a return to fiscal responsibility - but I suspect there are not. In a time of crisis, in a culture of entitlement, this has about as much chance of failing completely as the so-called "Patriot Act" did at a time when we were attacked.

    There are times when I wonder when/if common sense will ever return to this country.
    Than we need to end statewide lockdowns and begin to rebuild our destroyed economy.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #3
      I am very critical of people and governments who run up huge amounts of debt. HOWEVER, the two times I do agree with debt-based-spending are #1 to get through a major war (e.g. WWII), #2 in a time of crisis to help out the people directly.

      This appears to be #2, and thus, to me, at face value, appears justified.

      This is a time of crisis, it's not a run-of-the-mill time, so it's far more okay for balancing the budget to not happen properly, whereas normally I would indeed have something to say about fools mortgaging their grand-kids future. And, unlike the Trump/bipartisan bailout at the start of this crisis, where money was nearly all given to big businesses who didn't need it, this proposal appears to be primarily focused on the people who need it.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        $3T more borrowed
        Why are you assuming Dems want to borrow that money, as opposed to funding this proposal through raised taxes?

        In general, Dems do typically want to raise taxes to pay for things they want to spend. Accusations against them of fiscal irresponsibility seem unjustified.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Why are you assuming Dems want to borrow that money, as opposed to funding this proposal through raised taxes?

          In general, Dems do typically want to raise taxes to pay for things they want to spend. Accusations against them of fiscal irresponsibility seem unjustified.
          “They are going to take more of your money, to hand it back to you. It makes perfect sense, if you don’t think about it!”
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Than we need to end statewide lockdowns and begin to rebuild our destroyed economy.
            No. We need to follow the science and relax stay-at-home orders as it becomes safe to do so. There are other ways to deal with the poor and in need besides massive bailouts for business or the economy.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Why are you assuming Dems want to borrow that money, as opposed to funding this proposal through raised taxes?

              In general, Dems do typically want to raise taxes to pay for things they want to spend. Accusations against them of fiscal irresponsibility seem unjustified.
              I've seen no proposal for tax changes in any of the reports I've seen about this bill. Have you seen something I've missed?
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                I am very critical of people and governments who run up huge amounts of debt. HOWEVER, the two times I do agree with debt-based-spending are #1 to get through a major war (e.g. WWII), #2 in a time of crisis to help out the people directly.

                This appears to be #2, and thus, to me, at face value, appears justified.

                This is a time of crisis, it's not a run-of-the-mill time, so it's far more okay for balancing the budget to not happen properly, whereas normally I would indeed have something to say about fools mortgaging their grand-kids future. And, unlike the Trump/bipartisan bailout at the start of this crisis, where money was nearly all given to big businesses who didn't need it, this proposal appears to be primarily focused on the people who need it.
                Generally, I would agree, if there was a plan to pay for the cost in a reasonable period of time - usually with tax increases.

                What doesn't help is that this new debt is coming on top of an already $1T deficit that was incurred during a supposedly healthy economy. Fiscal irresponsibility in Washington has become rampant and is one of the few things that appears to be bipartisan - ironically enough.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  No. We need to follow the science and relax stay-at-home orders as it becomes safe to do so. There are other ways to deal with the poor and in need besides massive bailouts for business or the economy.
                  So government spending bills, it is!
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    “They are going to take more of your money, to hand it back to you. It makes perfect sense, if you don’t think about it!”
                    I believe the idea would be "they are going to give you the money now and pay for it with your taxes later." In a crisis or time of war, as Star points out," such compromises are common and make sense. What is missing, AFAICT, is the tax part of this. Instead, it seems to just pile on debt with no plan to recoup the funds in a reasonable near term.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      So government spending bills, it is!
                      Not necessarily - which is why I am against this bailout as it is being framed.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Not necessarily - which is why I am against this bailout as it is being framed.
                        Sorry, but that is how it is. Almost 80% of workers say they live paycheck to paycheck, so going months and months, with no check. Isn’t an option. The choices are:

                        1. Fire up the printers and start printing trillions of dollars off.
                        2. Start getting everyone back to work.
                        3. Do nothing and watch as the population says, “Screw you” and does what they want anyway, to avoid poverty.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Sorry, but that is how it is. Almost 80% of workers say they live paycheck to paycheck, so going months and months, with no check. Isn’t an option. The choices are:

                          1. Fire up the printers and start printing trillions of dollars off.
                          2. Start getting everyone back to work.
                          3. Do nothing and watch as the population says, “Screw you” and does what they want anyway, to avoid poverty.
                          4. Fire up community and local organizations to provide support for those in need in the interim while getting testing in place to determine who is safe to return to work and who is not. We are doing that successfully in our community. Those who have are sharing with those who do not, including food, lodging assistance, and transportation. It has turned this pandemic into a way in which we bond with neighbors and help one another out.

                          This could be an opportunity to bring out the best in everyone - instead of yet another reason for the country to stay partisan. My prediction: it will be yet another reason to stay partisan.

                          ETA: In conjunction, we should also begin targeted and slow-start reopening of select, low-risk businesses monitoring health progress/impact as we go. But that would require a government that gives a hoot about testing.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            4. Fire up community and local organizations to provide support for those in need in the interim while getting testing in place to determine who is safe to return to work and who is not. We are doing that successfully in our community. Those who have are sharing with those who do not, including food, lodging assistance, and transportation. It has turned this pandemic into a way in which we bond with neighbors and help one another out.

                            This could be an opportunity to bring out the best in everyone - instead of yet another reason for the country to stay partisan. My prediction: it will be yet another reason to stay partisan.
                            You can only fill in so long, without a check coming in. Let me know how that works out as your neighbors start running out of money because they are not working. Do you have a few hundred k, sitting around to help a business owner pay his bills? I don’t.

                            ETA: In conjunction, we should also begin targeted and slow-start reopening of select, low-risk businesses monitoring health progress/impact as we go. But that would require a government that gives a hoot about testing.
                            So option 2 it is.
                            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 05-13-2020, 08:06 AM.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              You can only fill in so long, without a check coming in. Let me know how that works out as your neighbors start running out of money because they are not working. Do you have a few hundred k, sitting around to help a business owner pay his bills? I don’t.
                              We have a program we started in our community called "Neighbor Helping Neighbor." Those who have contribute. Those who do not, do not. Those who need come for assistance. Because they are getting that help from their neighbors, the incidence of "taking advantage" is extremely rare. It is a model we are looking to replicate in other communities.

                              In this time, the donor pool has contracted, but the donations have actually increased. The demand, interestingly, has actually not risen considerably. Everyone is doing everything they can to make do with the bare minimum.

                              I'm proud of that in this community. Red and blue makes no difference as we are all pitching in to help out.

                              As I noted - this COULD be a time to draw the best out of all of us. Or it will just be another opportunity to be partisan and continue to bicker. I suspect the latter will be the nrom for most of the country. That is already manifest...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment

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