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Thread: Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    In order to be safe when driving you have to be a defensive driver, but because most every person is not always on the defensive doesn't put the blame on them if someone should run a red light and barrel into them.
    So far, so good, but I bet it doesn't last.

    The fact that Arbery wasn't aware of the oncoming danger is not the actual issue.
    He was aware that he had problems in that same area with the police just a few years prior.

    The only relevant facts that need be considered are the legal ones.
    Yeah, if you had a son who got killed, I'm sure you'd say, "well, gosh, the only facts that matter are the legal ones".

    Someone is actually legally at fault, and in this case the fault lies with the McMichaels gang.
    They are responsible for his death, yes. NEVER questioned that or tried to minimize it at all. NEVER. It is an outright like to claim I did.

    Suggesting that there is fault to be had on both sides because Arbery should have been more cautious,
    MAN, you can be bone-headed. I am not laying ANY fault on Arbery. ZERO. Just like in my analogy to my daughter - it wouldn't be HER FAULT if she got raped, putting her in some of the situations she did, but there MAY have been something she could have done to avoid that situation. NOT HER FAULT, but in that case, I wouldn't be worried about FAULT - I'd be concerned about her safety.

    should have been more aware of the fact that there are bad people out there is deflecting from the actual issue.
    ONLY because you .... um..... 'gentlemen'..... are only concerned about the NARRATIVE.

    That could just as well of happened in any neighborhood. How is Arbery to know which neighborhoods he can or can not go into without risking his life?
    Well, gee, maybe you finally need to pay attention to the fact that he had ALREADY HAD A RUN-IN WITH THE LAW in that neighborhood, and had ALREADY BEEN MISTREATED.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    No, I said I wasn't trying to convince you.
    Fine. It still doesn't change my point wrt how I interpret the things you say.


    [citation needed]
    Here you accuse *me* of lying about you failing to point me directly the the exculpatory evidence revealed by the recently declassified Flynn FBI 302s, and proceed to *fail to show me a liar* by pointing me to a post which does not contain the direct exculpatory evidence you claimed to have shown me.


    The fact that you refuse to read sources and follow all the relevant links within those sources is one of the reason I've stopped trying to convince you of anything.
    Another lie. I read your links. You know I do.


    [citation needed]
    You'd have to go back to shortly after I rejoined this BBS. It was in one of the earlier messages you wrote to me where you admitted you troll multiple bulletin boards. You going to make be dig that up too?

  3. #723
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineBoob View Post
    Fine. It still doesn't change my point wrt how I interpret the things you say.
    Guess how much I care.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineBoob View Post
    Here you accuse *me* of lying about you failing to point me directly the the exculpatory evidence revealed by the recently declassified Flynn FBI 302s, and proceed to *fail to show me a liar* by pointing me to a post which does not contain the direct exculpatory evidence you claimed to have shown me.
    That you think this supports your accusation is just...

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineBoob View Post
    Another lie. I read your links. You know I do.
    If you do then I can only assume you deliberately give the impression that you don't in hopes that I will trip myself trying to explain things to you. This appears to be one of your most common debate tactics. Another reason I've stopped trying to convince you of anything because it's rarely a production conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineBoob View Post
    You'd have to go back to shortly after I rejoined this BBS. It was in one of the earlier messages you wrote to me where you admitted you troll multiple bulletin boards. You going to make be dig that up too?
    If I said anything like that, I was almost certainly joking or being sarcastic.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Guess how much I care.
    More than you think.


    That you think this supports your accusation is just...
    Feel free to point me directly to the exculpatory evidence from the 302s.


    If you do then I can only assume you deliberately give the impression that you don't in hopes that I will trip myself trying to explain things to you. This appears to be one of your most common debate tactics. Another reason I've stopped trying to convince you of anything because it's rarely a production conversation.
    You do know I was there, right? And anyone from the peanut gallery who you're trying to give a snow job to is welcome to read the thread I linked to see for themselves whether I read your links or not.


    If I said anything like that, I was almost certainly joking or being sarcastic.
    Mhmmm... well, good luck with that James :).

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So far, so good, but I bet it doesn't last.



    He was aware that he had problems in that same area with the police just a few years prior.
    So what, he could have had a problem in any area, just like a car can run a red light in any area. Does that mean you need to avoid driving in that area anymore? You have no idea what that neighborhoodis like so I'm not sure why you are disparaging the area itself as if it's a bunch of racists.


    Yeah, if you had a son who got killed, I'm sure you'd say, "well, gosh, the only facts that matter are the legal ones".
    Well, I wouldn't be blaming it on the neighborhood. What you're suggesting is that the neighborhood Arbery was in was a dangerous place for him to be. Why is that?


    They are responsible for his death, yes. NEVER questioned that or tried to minimize it at all. NEVER. It is an outright like to claim I did.
    Not sure about that CP, you've certainly insinuated fault on the part of Arbery and defended some of the actions taken by the McMichaels.


    MAN, you can be bone-headed. I am not laying ANY fault on Arbery. ZERO. Just like in my analogy to my daughter - it wouldn't be HER FAULT if she got raped, putting her in some of the situations she did, but there MAY have been something she could have done to avoid that situation. NOT HER FAULT, but in that case, I wouldn't be worried about FAULT - I'd be concerned about her safety.
    Well i dn't know what kind of situations you're talking about with respect to your daughter, but suggesting that she put herself in that situation is finding fault with her. Perhaps whatever you're refering to was her fault, I have no idea, but I don't understand how that relates to Arbery's situation. What was his fault, being black in a white neighborhood?


    ONLY because you .... um..... 'gentlemen'..... are only concerned about the NARRATIVE.
    The narrative is pretty cut and dry. Arbery was jogging through the neighborhood, stopped in to check out the house under construction, as people, including yourself and your wife do, left and was tracked down by a couple of armed men who he tried to avoid several times until they finally cut him off, hopped out of the truck with shotgun in hand, threatening his life to which he responded by defending himself, was shot and killed.


    Well, gee, maybe you finally need to pay attention to the fact that he had ALREADY HAD A RUN-IN WITH THE LAW in that neighborhood, and had ALREADY BEEN MISTREATED.
    Irrelevant. Having a run in with the law has nothing to do with the neighborhood itself. You could have a run in with the law in your own neighborhood, does that mean you're in a bad neighborhood?

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    If something had happened to your daughter how would you have responded if I pointed out that "she should not have been walking alone dressed like that"? Wouldn't you fear that too many people would be satisfied with that explanation and not make any effort to change society to make things safer for *all* women?
    This is not a hypothetical for me, DO --- I don't think you can even imagine the things I've been through with my daughter, and the times I have begged her to modify her behavior to avoid death. Of her 4 closest friends (if you can call them friends), two died of overdoses of drugs, and one was murdered. SHE (my daughter) was even questioned by the police about that girl's death) The fourth girl disappeared and has not yet been found. TRUE story. (And all of those friends were black) After spending 6 weeks in a psycho ward, she moved in with us to "dry out". I can't tell you the sleepless nights we had as she woke up screaming with nightmares, then had all kinds of delusions of "they're going to get me next - they know where you live - they're outside right now!"

    Wouldn't it consume you with rage that even a single person would *blame her* for what happened?
    Well, first of all, I don't get consumed with rage. I see no value in that whatsoever. I'm more of a "work the problem" kind of guy.

    I believe you and I both want a society every everyone is treated the same regardless of skin color or socioeconomic background.
    I do. Which is why I am not hyperfocused on race. I just got my hair cut in what others might call a "black barber shop". To me, it's the barber shop where one of my buddies, who happens to be black, does a great haircut.

    It sounds like you don't think that, as a society, asking certain members of that society (i.e. PoC) to modify their behavior vs what is permissible to the dominant group (i.e. Whites) would overly impede us moving towards that idealized situation of complete equality. Is that correct?
    Wow...... I guess I'm guilty, because in our Jobs for Life program, we help blacks and Hispanics learn how to write resumes, sit for interviews, know what to expect of prospective employers.... so I guess I'm guilty of "asking PoC to modify their behavior" to obtain employment, get promotions and raises, regain self-respect....

    Or do you just believe it is a necessary evil since the benefits to the individuals who avoid getting beat up / killed is so great vs the effort / impact on their lives?
    Once again, I think that brilliant sage Charles hit it on the head when he fumed about "CAN'T YOU DO BOTH" (until, of course, he discovered that I WAS advocating for BOTH, and it was JimL who was valiantly fighting for only one side.

    Yes, I am aware we will never get to that idealized society. I don't see that as a reason to accept less than maximal effort at getting there.
    OK, I just laughed out loud, because, at the risk of being accused of tooting my own horn, I don't think there's probably anybody on this board who puts more actual effort into "working the problem" than me. I think that's why I get so frustrated with the do-gooders who just yak and yak and yak and do all this phony virtue signaling.

    It is relevant from the perspective of "What could have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "all of the above")
    It is *irrelevant* from the perspective of "What *should* have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "change society")
    The problem, as I see it, is there's WAY too much focus on BLAME, and FAR too little focus on solutions.

    Surely you agree that it *should* be just as safe for a PoC to be wherever it is safe for a White to go.
    Which is why I've actually said that numerous times and in various ways.

    Those of us "on the left" are rejecting factors which do *not* move us towards that ultimate goal.
    And, again - I mean no disrespect - but that's "working the narrative" instead of "working the problem".
    Sure, it's so very noble to be seen as "moving toward that goal", because that's the popular thing to do.
    The HARD thing to do is to look at ALL aspects of the problem, and actually try to do things that KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE while we're "working the problem".

    Indeed, I'd suggest that discussing those details moves us *away* from that goal for a few reasons

    1) It gives people an "out" to blame the victim (maybe not you but people like MM)
    And it takes COURAGE to stand up to that idiocy --- I can't HELP people protect themselves and use sound judgment because I'm going to be attacked as "blaming the victim".

    2) It takes up space in the conversation which we don't have to spare when it comes to trying to solve such a serious and deep rooted problem like race relations
    Think about that ---- you think people are SO STUPID that they are incapable of working ALL ANGLES of the problem, simply because LIFE IS THAT PRECIOUS?
    To me, this is part of the "stinking thinking" of the liberal mindset ---- Let's ONLY focus the work that is popular and will get us a big pat on the back and make us feel good.
    Let's NOT do the HARD STUFF for which we will be criticized and maligned, but might actually SAVE lives.

    3) It gives *encouragement* to racists and white supremacists
    They're going to do what they're going to do. It's who they are. They don't need "encouragement".

    But, PLEASE tell me how me meeting with 40-60 black men on a weekday morning over breakfast helping them to deal with the REALITIES of life -- WHILE WORKING TO CHANGE THOSE REALITIES -- "gives encouragement to racists and white supremacists, and why I should give a flyin' flip.

    The advice you would give your child, like the advice I would give my child, is going to be different from the advice we express as a society.
    Why? Because we love our children MORE than we love society? I mean, sure, I do, but do I use that as an excuse not to be just as honest with "society" as I am my own child? That's cowardly.

    That these are distinct is a viewpoint not unfamiliar with to those "on the right" who oppose evolution / climate change / LGBTQ tolerance / etc. being taught in schools.
    Um...... I didn't see that coming ---- that giant broad brush flyin' around everywhere is... from YOUR hand?

    I think it's just a very, very fine line to walk if you are going to discuss all contributing factors in a way which doesn't reduce our focus on the gigantic one -- our society is sick and many, many Whites are totally unable to see that, unwilling to address it, or enjoy benefiting from it.
    Remember that courageous genius, Charles, who asked "why can't you do BOTH"? (until he got whiplash backtracking when he found out it was ME who was... )

    The fact that this suddenly burst of anti-Asian racism ("Kung flu" and the like) goes totally unchallenged on *this board* by a single voice "on the right" should show you how much sick pleasure comes from looking down on "the other" even among devoted Christians. There's no appetite for dealing with these issues among many and they'll accept any tenuous excuse not to.
    Ya lost me.

    Well, it's easy because I know you care about people and aren't looking to blame the victim or make excuses for racists. I missed the early part of this discussion so I don't know how all that went down. I think the issues come down to a conflict between personal responsibility vs societal responsibility / change, which is refreshing since it's a disagreement I can legitimately accept that there are well-intentioned opposing views on.
    OK, gonna try this one more time...

    BOTH!!!!!

    It takes ZERO courage to wave the flag everybody else is waving and say all the right things and be seen as a 'social justice warrior' or whatever, ACTING like "I loves black people so much....."
    Then there's the COURAGE of actually working the problem, knowing that these same (in some cases) lazy blabbermouth do-gooders will ATTACK those who are actually working the problem every day.

    One last thing.....

    Gene Kranz (who I knew personally ) was famous for constantly coming back to (as highlighted in the movie Apollo 13 "Let's work the problem people. Let's not make things worse by guessing."

    My version of that might be more like "let's work the problem, people - let's not just sit around endlessly blogging about it just to FEEL GOOD".
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This is not a hypothetical for me, DO --- I don't think you can even imagine the things I've been through with my daughter, and the times I have begged her to modify her behavior to avoid death. Of her 4 closest friends (if you can call them friends), two died of overdoses of drugs, and one was murdered. SHE (my daughter) was even questioned by the police about that girl's death) The fourth girl disappeared and has not yet been found. TRUE story. (And all of those friends were black) After spending 6 weeks in a psycho ward, she moved in with us to "dry out". I can't tell you the sleepless nights we had as she woke up screaming with nightmares, then had all kinds of delusions of "they're going to get me next - they know where you live - they're outside right now!"



    Well, first of all, I don't get consumed with rage. I see no value in that whatsoever. I'm more of a "work the problem" kind of guy.



    I do. Which is why I am not hyperfocused on race. I just got my hair cut in what others might call a "black barber shop". To me, it's the barber shop where one of my buddies, who happens to be black, does a great haircut.



    Wow...... I guess I'm guilty, because in our Jobs for Life program, we help blacks and Hispanics learn how to write resumes, sit for interviews, know what to expect of prospective employers.... so I guess I'm guilty of "asking PoC to modify their behavior" to obtain employment, get promotions and raises, regain self-respect....



    Once again, I think that brilliant sage Charles hit it on the head when he fumed about "CAN'T YOU DO BOTH" (until, of course, he discovered that I WAS advocating for BOTH, and it was JimL who was valiantly fighting for only one side.



    OK, I just laughed out loud, because, at the risk of being accused of tooting my own horn, I don't think there's probably anybody on this board who puts more actual effort into "working the problem" than me. I think that's why I get so frustrated with the do-gooders who just yak and yak and yak and do all this phony virtue signaling.



    The problem, as I see it, is there's WAY too much focus on BLAME, and FAR too little focus on solutions.



    Which is why I've actually said that numerous times and in various ways.



    And, again - I mean no disrespect - but that's "working the narrative" instead of "working the problem".
    Sure, it's so very noble to be seen as "moving toward that goal", because that's the popular thing to do.
    The HARD thing to do is to look at ALL aspects of the problem, and actually try to do things that KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE while we're "working the problem".



    And it takes COURAGE to stand up to that idiocy --- I can't HELP people protect themselves and use sound judgment because I'm going to be attacked as "blaming the victim".



    Think about that ---- you think people are SO STUPID that they are incapable of working ALL ANGLES of the problem, simply because LIFE IS THAT PRECIOUS?
    To me, this is part of the "stinking thinking" of the liberal mindset ---- Let's ONLY focus the work that is popular and will get us a big pat on the back and make us feel good.
    Let's NOT do the HARD STUFF for which we will be criticized and maligned, but might actually SAVE lives.



    They're going to do what they're going to do. It's who they are. They don't need "encouragement".

    But, PLEASE tell me how me meeting with 40-60 black men on a weekday morning over breakfast helping them to deal with the REALITIES of life -- WHILE WORKING TO CHANGE THOSE REALITIES -- "gives encouragement to racists and white supremacists, and why I should give a flyin' flip.



    Why? Because we love our children MORE than we love society? I mean, sure, I do, but do I use that as an excuse not to be just as honest with "society" as I am my own child? That's cowardly.



    Um...... I didn't see that coming ---- that giant broad brush flyin' around everywhere is... from YOUR hand?



    Remember that courageous genius, Charles, who asked "why can't you do BOTH"? (until he got whiplash backtracking when he found out it was ME who was... )



    Ya lost me.



    OK, gonna try this one more time...

    BOTH!!!!!

    It takes ZERO courage to wave the flag everybody else is waving and say all the right things and be seen as a 'social justice warrior' or whatever, ACTING like "I loves black people so much....."
    Then there's the COURAGE of actually working the problem, knowing that these same (in some cases) lazy blabbermouth do-gooders will ATTACK those who are actually working the problem every day.

    One last thing.....

    Gene Kranz (who I knew personally ) was famous for constantly coming back to (as highlighted in the movie Apollo 13 "Let's work the problem people. Let's not make things worse by guessing."

    My version of that might be more like "let's work the problem, people - let's not just sit around endlessly blogging about it just to FEEL GOOD".
    Part of 'working the problem' in this case is exposing the underlying thought processes and cultural mythologies that perpetuate it.

    If I think 2+2 = 5, then it doesn't matter how many times I try to work the problem, I'm always going to get the wrong answer. The fundamental thought processes highlighted in this thread by those casting blame on Arbery or trying to lesson the evil of those who killed him are wrong. But exposing the error in those ideas is prevented by the insane ideological distrust of anyone or anything that tries to show why they are wrong, to the point no one is listening.

    It's as if people were taught 2+2 =5, but they also cut tte tongue out of anyone that would dare claim they can show 2+2 =4.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-28-2020 at 07:26 AM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  8. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  9. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Part of 'working the problem' in this case is exposing the underlying thought processes and cultural mythologies that perpetuate it.

    If I think 2+2 = 5, then it doesn't matter how many times I try to work the problem, I'm always going to get the wrong answer. The fundamental thought processes highlighted in this thread by those casting blame on Arbery or trying to lesson the evil of those who killed him are wrong. But exposing the error in those ideas is prevented by the insane ideological distrust of anyone or anything that tries to show why they are wrong, to the point no one is listening.

    It's as if people were taught 2+2 =5, but they also cut tte tongue out of anyone that would dare claim they can show 2+2 =4.
    Remember, Charles said DO BOTH. But only if you actually care as much for black people in general as you care about your own daughter.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Remember, Charles said DO BOTH. But only if you actually care as much for black people in general as you care about your own daughter.
    Nobody has suggested that you can't consider safety precaustions. But the thread title is "racist killing and attempted cover-up." Whether or not Arbery considered the area in question to be a danger is not even known. Had he thought it a dangereous area to jog in he may not have jogged through it. I'm not sure why you would bring that up in this specific case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Remember, Charles said DO BOTH. But only if you actually care as much for black people in general as you care about your own daughter.
    My own daughter? Not playing that game CP. I was answering only the bolded line in your post. Given that. Your reply is not even a reply to my post but rather a reply to something else.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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