Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[oxmixmudd]

Somehow I doubt that would be sufficient penance for the unpardonable sins I have committed.

this is no laughing matter CP. Literally millions suffer oppression and deprivation every day because of the cumulative consequences of it.

As a Nation we are now focused on Arbery, Floyd, Taylor and now Brooks as 4 that have died needlessly at the hand of it, but they are just symbols of the depth and breadth of the problem. And we ALL have a part to play in changing it, and the imbalance of these threads are a place to start.

This thread began with the assumption Arbery was 'up do no good' that continued throughout. That assumption is fed in part by the culturally derived and proven fact that all of us are more suspicious of a black man doing something seemingly out of place than a white man doing the same thing. It has been ingrained into us from birth just by the fact we grew up in the US. It is part of the legacy of slavery and racism in our country, and it results in a higher percentage of black people arrested and incarcerated for the same crime. This thread shows that imbalance in post after post - even after it was clear Arbery never took anything and was just out for a jog. Some here still simply will not accept that is all it was - a jog.Even after we discovered the racial slur shouted out after Arbery was killed, this thread still focused on what was wrong with Arbery. So ingrained is that cultural suspicion of a black man out of place in some way.

[oxmixmudd]

First off, are you referring to the event in Luke 9 where James and John wanted to call down fire? Otherwise, I can't find jack or squat about the event you're referring to- after repeated searches on BibleGateway- so I suspect you've kit-bashed a bunch of separate incidents. I await clarification.

That would be it. It was James and John, but not Peter - my mistake (Peter, James, and John are THE three and are often spoken of together - my bad for not double checking).

Doesn't change even one bit the principle that we can, unwittingly, despite the reality or strength of our relationship with Christ, find ourselves participants in an evil without even knowing it.

Second, Holy "White Guilt Complex" Batman! There's no need to bring up some vague, "Cultural, Unconscious Racism," accusation when we've still got plenty of old-fashioned overt racism to deal with... unless you can't pin any legitimate acts of racism on your critics.

It's all part and parcel of the same problem, but the covert, unconscious racism is more insidious and tends to perpetuate itself more completely throughout the culture. Just like COVID-19 is far harder to track because it can spread from asymptomatic people.

By the way, if your conduct on here is any indicator, I imagine your prayers echo the Pharisees and sound something like, "God, I thank you that I am not like those other people- Racists, Sinners, Robbers- and those filthy Trump Supporters over there." They're probably not, but frankly if I was to know a tree by it's fruit you've clearly got your head shoved up your self-righteous cornhole.

Your imagination would be quite wrong. And you only judge yourself by conjuring up that vision of how I'm thinking about this or how I am responding to what I see as simply my duty not to remain silent as these threads proceed denigrating people shot down unjustly. Whether you understand it or not, this is the pattern of racism from the time of Jim Crow until now - the exaggeration of the wrongs in the murdered black man which just by being pursued tends to excuse their white murderers. One doesn't have to explicitly justify or excuse the white man doing the killing. All one has to do is focus on and exaggerate whatever wrong one might be able to find as it relates to the black man killed - as has been done across multiple threads in this forum, and across generations of racism in this country.

And for the record, I have changed in the past and am willing to change in the future. Heck, sometimes I've been dragged kicking and screaming into those changes because I know for a FACT that I'm going to catch fifty shades of flak because of them.

Well - that is a good thing. Just keep in mind this is likely one of those times you'll discover you were dragged kicking and screaming toward the necessary change

[JimL]

this is no laughing matter CP. Literally millions suffer oppression and deprivation every day because of the cumulative consequences of it.

As a Nation we are now focused on Arbery, Floyd, Taylor and now Brooks as 4 that have died needlessly at the hand of it, but they are just symbols of the depth and breadth of the problem. And we ALL have a part to play in changing it, and the imbalance of these threads are a place to start.

This thread began with the assumption Arbery was 'up do no good' that continued throughout. That assumption is fed in part by the culturally derived and proven fact that all of us are more suspicious of a black man doing something seemingly out of place than a white man doing the same thing. It has been ingrained into us from birth just by the fact we grew up in the US. It is part of the legacy of slavery and racism in our country, and it results in a higher percentage of black people arrested and incarcerated for the same crime. This thread shows that imbalance in post after post - even after it was clear Arbery never took anything and was just out for a jog. Some here still simply will not accept that is all it was - a jog.Even after we discovered the racial slur shouted out after Arbery was killed, this thread still focused on what was wrong with Arbery. So ingrained is that cultural suspicion of a black man out of place in some way.

Yep, I suspect that even black people are more suspicious of black people. Black people commit more crimes. Poverty breeds that kind of result. But facts is facts and should have nothing to do with MM's, I mean ones, suspicians.

[Mountain Man]

That assumption is fed in part by the culturally derived and proven fact that all of us are more suspicious of a black man doing something seemingly out of place than a white man doing the same thing.

Classic projection.

[JimL]

Classic projection.

You're a scream, MM.

[oxmixmudd]

Classic projection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimin...ican_Americans

The phenomenon is well known and well studied. You are just displaying your ignorance MM ... and your malice.

[Mountain Man]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimin...ican_Americans

The phenomenon is well known and well studied. You are just displaying your ignorance MM ... and your malice.

I'm not a racist, and unlike you, I didn't grow up in a racist environment:

I was brought up in part in that southern racist culture. I witnessed segregation. Had school mates and friends for whom the Civil War is never over. I had relatives that were, in fact, white nationalists, people deep into the conspiracy theories that are out there...

I can't name a single person in my extended family who is racist or who I ever heard say a disparaging word about anyone simply because they weren't white. I spent my teenage years living in inner cities where whites were the minority. I went to school with black kids. I had black friends. So, no, I do not view black people as inherently more suspicious than people of any other race. Your insistence that "all of us" are guilty of this kind of thinking sounds like the confession of a racist who's desperately trying to convince himself that everybody else is just like him.

[MaxVel]

this is no laughing matter CP. Literally millions suffer oppression and deprivation every day because of the cumulative consequences of it.

As a Nation we are now focused on Arbery, Floyd, Taylor and now Brooks as 4 that have died needlessly at the hand of it, but they are just symbols of the depth and breadth of the problem. And we ALL have a part to play in changing it, and the imbalance of these threads are a place to start.

You're really not helping, with your point-shout-accuse methodology. Instead of showing people where they are wrong about the facts, you accuse them of being bad for thinking about the facts.

You are trying to stop people from coming to a reasoned change of mind about something, and you are trying to stop people from coming to any conclusion except the one that makes you feel more emotionally comfortable. You're not doing this with reasoned argument, but with attempts at manipulation and browbeating.

The message you have consistently put out in this thread is "Black people are never in any way responsible for anything bad that happens to them in any interaction with white people. Even wondering that it might be in some measure partly the fault of a black person is racist. The facts are irrelevant, what matters is the race of the people involved."

And you're doing it again in the Brooks shooting thread. No facts, just abuse and labelling.

This thread began with the assumption Arbery was 'up do no good'

Blatantly false.

OP Title: Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

That assumes that Arbery's death was due to racism (on the part of the McMikes)


OP: Ambushing and killing an unarmed jogging black man.

Again, it is assumed, not argued for, that Arbery was attacked and killed for no good reason.


Now, all of these assumptions might be true - but they are assumptions, none the less. And they assume Arbery's complete innocence and complete faultlessness.

Post #3 (Littlejoe) "Lot's of things went horribly wrong here with a lot of mistakes on both sides."

Argument from facts, and conclusion: fault on both sides (i.e Arbery AND the McMikes). NO assumption that Arbery was 'up to no good'

Post #4 (SeanD) - video from Tom Pool (this is were the miles fro home thing comes from, btw), and "The guy wasn't innocently jogging through the neighborhood like the left claims. But I think most would agree he shouldn't have been shot."

Conclusion: it was wrong for the McMikes to have shot Arbery, even if he wasn't completely innocent.

Post #5 (oxmixmudd)

"Although that rhetoric has been used as a defense, nothing so far can even come close to justifying his murder or the actions taken that lead up to it. If you think someone is behaving suspiciously, pull out your cell and call the police. And you don't draw your gun on someone as a civilian UNLESS they threaten you first or they are in your house. If I was being detained by two citizens toting guns I would be afraid for my life, and that will provoke 'fight or flight'. Ahmed chose to try to fight."

Dismissal of evidence presented so far, without any direct discussion of it. Assumption that there can be no justification for the shooting, nor for anything else the McMikes did prior to it.

that continued throughout. That assumption is fed in part by the culturally derived and proven fact that all of us are more suspicious of a black man doing something seemingly out of place than a white man doing the same thing.

You are the one who has refused to talk about any facts, and who has attacked others for talking about the facts. You are the one who has made the assumptions here. You are the one who has failed to examine the case with any objectivity.


Ironically, everyone else here - those who actually think, and evaluate, and try to reach an objective decision - has come to the conclusion that Arbery shouldn't have been shot, even if he had been trespassing. Everyone has said that the McMikes made some bad decisions that led to an unnecessary death and Arbery also made some poor choices that put him in a more dangerous situation.

It has been ingrained into us from birth just by the fact we grew up in the US.

Not everyone here grew up in the US. Some here did, but grew up in very diverse and multi-racial environments. Some posters here are black, or mixed-race. Other posters work closely as volunteers and helpers with the very people (disadvantaged blacks) that you claim to want to help.

You have repeatedly labeled and stereotyped all of us with your own assumptions. You haven't listened, or asked, you've just projected your own prejudices onto us.

It is part of the legacy of slavery and racism in our country, and it results in a higher percentage of black people arrested and incarcerated for the same crime. This thread shows that imbalance in post after post - even after it was clear Arbery never took anything and was just out for a jog. Some here still simply will not accept that is all it was - a jog.Even after we discovered the racial slur shouted out after Arbery was killed, this thread still focused on what was wrong with Arbery. So ingrained is that cultural suspicion of a black man out of place in some way.

Nope. You don't get to judge what others are thinking about, or their motivations, or their reasons when you have refused to listen or discuss the facts from the start. You don't get to try to control what people can talk about by false accusations, stereotypes, slurs and attacks, and then whine when people push back against that.

You set up a dynamic where elements of the incident were declared 'taboo' , off limits, and 'evil' to think about or discuss. Of course that's going to prompt people to look more closely into them, if nothing else because they've been 'told' that it's forbidden to.

We all can read what you've posted, we can all see your falsehoods, smears and gaslighting attempts. It's right here, and you don't get to pretend it didn't happen.

[lilpixieofterror]

You're really not helping, with your point-shout-accuse methodology. Instead of showing people where they are wrong about the facts, you accuse them of being bad for thinking about the facts.

You are trying to stop people from coming to a reasoned change of mind about something, and you are trying to stop people from coming to any conclusion except the one that makes you feel more emotionally comfortable. You're not doing this with reasoned argument, but with attempts at manipulation and browbeating.

The message you have consistently put out in this thread is "Black people are never in any way responsible for anything bad that happens to them in any interaction with white people. Even wondering that it might be in some measure partly the fault of a black person is racist. The facts are irrelevant, what matters is the race of the people involved."

And you're doing it again in the Brooks shooting thread. No facts, just abuse and labelling.




Blatantly false.

OP Title: Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

That assumes that Arbery's death was due to racism (on the part of the McMikes)


OP: Ambushing and killing an unarmed jogging black man.

Again, it is assumed, not argued for, that Arbery was attacked and killed for no good reason.


Now, all of these assumptions might be true - but they are assumptions, none the less. And they assume Arbery's complete innocence and complete faultlessness.

Post #3 (Littlejoe) "Lot's of things went horribly wrong here with a lot of mistakes on both sides."

Argument from facts, and conclusion: fault on both sides (i.e Arbery AND the McMikes). NO assumption that Arbery was 'up to no good'

Post #4 (SeanD) - video from Tom Pool (this is were the miles fro home thing comes from, btw), and "The guy wasn't innocently jogging through the neighborhood like the left claims. But I think most would agree he shouldn't have been shot."

Conclusion: it was wrong for the McMikes to have shot Arbery, even if he wasn't completely innocent.

Post #5 (oxmixmudd)

"Although that rhetoric has been used as a defense, nothing so far can even come close to justifying his murder or the actions taken that lead up to it. If you think someone is behaving suspiciously, pull out your cell and call the police. And you don't draw your gun on someone as a civilian UNLESS they threaten you first or they are in your house. If I was being detained by two citizens toting guns I would be afraid for my life, and that will provoke 'fight or flight'. Ahmed chose to try to fight."

Dismissal of evidence presented so far, without any direct discussion of it. Assumption that there can be no justification for the shooting, nor for anything else the McMikes did prior to it.




You are the one who has refused to talk about any facts, and who has attacked others for talking about the facts. You are the one who has made the assumptions here. You are the one who has failed to examine the case with any objectivity.


Ironically, everyone else here - those who actually think, and evaluate, and try to reach an objective decision - has come to the conclusion that Arbery shouldn't have been shot, even if he had been trespassing. Everyone has said that the McMikes made some bad decisions that led to an unnecessary death and Arbery also made some poor choices that put him in a more dangerous situation.




Not everyone here grew up in the US. Some here did, but grew up in very diverse and multi-racial environments. Some posters here are black, or mixed-race. Other posters work closely as volunteers and helpers with the very people (disadvantaged blacks) that you claim to want to help.

You have repeatedly labeled and stereotyped all of us with your own assumptions. You haven't listened, or asked, you've just projected your own prejudices onto us.





Nope. You don't get to judge what others are thinking about, or their motivations, or their reasons when you have refused to listen or discuss the facts from the start. You don't get to try to control what people can talk about by false accusations, stereotypes, slurs and attacks, and then whine when people push back against that.

You set up a dynamic where elements of the incident were declared 'taboo' , off limits, and 'evil' to think about or discuss. Of course that's going to prompt people to look more closely into them, if nothing else because they've been 'told' that it's forbidden to.

We all can read what you've posted, we can all see your falsehoods, smears and gaslighting attempts. It's right here, and you don't get to pretend it didn't happen.

I grew up in the US and don’t recall being taught that black people are more suspicious by virtue of being black. In fact:

1. One of my uncles dated several Black women.
2. Several of my parents friends were black men and women that frequently came over and brought their children.
3. I didn’t grow up in the south, but in California.
4. I didn’t grow up in the civil rights era, but in the 90’s and 00’s where nobody thought twice about white and black children attending the same school together.

Simply put, I was not taught to be racist. Some of these post reveal more about Oxi than they do about others here.

[Chaotic Void]

That would be it. It was James and John, but not Peter - my mistake (Peter, James, and John are THE three and are often spoken of together - my bad for not double checking).

Doesn't change even one bit the principle that we can, unwittingly, despite the reality or strength of our relationship with Christ, find ourselves participants in an evil without even knowing it.

This isn't an example of what you're looking for... earlier in Luke 9 Jesus gave The Twelve- his closest Disciples- EXPLICIT instructions on how to conduct themselves on an unwelcoming community. Jesus' rebuke to James and John is in response to their desire to directly violate his initial, very blatant, commands. This is less, "You're participating in Evil without even knowing it," and more, "You IDIOTS! I told you how to this Day 1, knock it off." It's like being a Supervisor in a restaurant kitchen and taking a dump without washing your hands levels of screwing up.

It's all part and parcel of the same problem, but the covert, unconscious racism is more insidious and tends to perpetuate itself more completely throughout the culture. Just like COVID-19 is far harder to track because it can spread from asymptomatic people.

This reminds me of all the Fundies, back in the day, who claimed you could find Satanic Imagery throughout American Culture (comic books, movies, video games, etc). Except now, instead of finding the phone number of Lucifer's personal cocaine dealer by playing a music single backwards, you can apparently find White Supremacist Propaganda just about everywhere you look. A, "Same Pig, Different Shade of Lipstick," situation... I wasn't kissing Porky-in-Drag back then, I sure as heck ain't gonna do it now.

Yes, there was some Satanic Imagery used in culture back then, just as there is racism around today... it's just not as prevalent as some of the fear-mongers would have people believe.

Your imagination would be quite wrong. And you only judge yourself by conjuring up that vision of how I'm thinking about this or how I am responding to what I see as simply my duty not to remain silent as these threads proceed denigrating people shot down unjustly. Whether you understand it or not, this is the pattern of racism from the time of Jim Crow until now - the exaggeration of the wrongs in the murdered black man which just by being pursued tends to excuse their white murderers. One doesn't have to explicitly justify or excuse the white man doing the killing. All one has to do is focus on and exaggerate whatever wrong one might be able to find as it relates to the black man killed - as has been done across multiple threads in this forum, and across generations of racism in this country.

I was only basing this on your actions earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

I won't dispute that there are victim-blaming jackasses in every group. But accusing folks- especially without proper substantiation- of racism and/or victim-blaming when they're trying to get their facts straight before coming to a conclusion doesn't look good on your part. As I said earlier, I think Arbery's death was racially motivated because we have a witness saying that certain slurs were uttered. As for George Floyd? I don't believe we have grounds at this time to conclude the officer killed him due to racism. Now, concluding his murder is evidence of unchecked police brutality and rampant union corruption, on the other hand...

Well - that is a good thing. Just keep in mind this is likely one of those times you'll discover you were dragged kicking and screaming toward the necessary change

I'll tell you the same thing that I tell people who expect me to support Trump, or become a Dispensationalist, or embrace Communism: "You best up your game."

[Mountain Man]

Some of these post reveal more about Oxi than they do about others here.

I genuinely think he is trying to salve a guilty conscience by convincing himself that all white people are just like him.

[lilpixieofterror]

I genuinely think he is trying to salve a guilty conscience by convincing himself that all white people are just like him.

That could be it. I suspect he also doesn’t get not all of us grew up in the civil rights era. By the time I started kindergarten, Brown Vs Board of Education was something that happened over 30 years before. All the civil rights era important events; the Arkansas Nine, MLK’s ‘I Have a Dream’ speech, The 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, all that stuff was pictures in history books. I have no memory of segregation because it ended when my parents were children and my parents had little experience with it because California did not experience the levels of violence the Deep South did and they were young kids when it was happening. Not all Americans have the same experiences.

[oxmixmudd]

That could be it. I suspect he also doesn’t get not all of us grew up in the civil rights era. By the time I started kindergarten, Brown Vs Board of Education was something that happened over 30 years before. All the civil rights era important events; the Arkansas Nine, MLK’s ‘I Have a Dream’ speech, The 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, all that stuff was pictures in history books. I have no memory of segregation because it ended when my parents were children and my parents had little experience with it because California did not experience the levels of violence the Deep South did and they were young kids when it was happening. Not all Americans have the same experiences.

Sorry, that simply does not fly. The oppression of black people is still here, and the people here in these threads are still part of it. However, your attempts to smear a voice calling out that same racism are not unexpected.

In reality, the issue is the opposite. You not seeing the explicit racism codified by law and its horror helps to keep you blind to the reality of the implicit racism and its cost and effect.

[Cow Poke]

I grew up in the US and don’t recall being taught that black people are more suspicious by virtue of being black. In fact:

1. One of my uncles dated several Black women.
2. Several of my parents friends were black men and women that frequently came over and brought their children.
3. I didn’t grow up in the south, but in California.
4. I didn’t grow up in the civil rights era, but in the 90’s and 00’s where nobody thought twice about white and black children attending the same school together.

Simply put, I was not taught to be racist. Some of these post reveal more about Oxi than they do about others here.

EGGzackly.... in my workweek, I'm absolutely the minority white guy in the room, my "boss" and best friend is black, most of the people we minister to are black (there are a few Hispanics).... but somehow I'm a racist. And our pregnancy center, run by white folk, ministers to mostly black and Hispanic women.

It is just plain psychotic to come to that conclusion based on me wanting to know ALL of the facts in the case --- not to try to use them to construct an outcome, but to see what they tell us. That's actually the heart of "the scientific method", but in a case like this, that gets pooped on. IGNORE any facts that don't absolutely line up with the liberal narrative!

[oxmixmudd]

EGGzackly.... in my workweek, I'm absolutely the minority white guy in the room, my "boss" and best friend is black, most of the people we minister to are black (there are a few Hispanics).... but somehow I'm a racist. And our pregnancy center, run by white folk, ministers to mostly black and Hispanic women.

It is just plain psychotic to come to that conclusion based on me wanting to know ALL of the facts in the case --- not to try to use them to construct an outcome, but to see what they tell us. That's actually the heart of "the scientific method", but in a case like this, that gets pooped on. IGNORE any facts that don't absolutely line up with the liberal narrative!

You only wanted to know the facts that made Arbery the more guilty CP. Those were the facts you focused on and emphasized. You even scolded Arbery and thos around him for not encouraging him not to run in that white neighborhood. Yet you are blind to what that says about racism in this country and in you.

Never once did you defend Arbery rightvto be running there, nor did you push back against those that exaggerated the seriousness of being on that property, or those that wanted to say that excused the chase. You never commented on how extreme and over the top it was to chase a person in that fashion over such a small infraction - and you in every case stood against those that did do that, myself included.