Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[JimL]

Now that Mountain Man and Cow Poke have clearly explained that they're not defending the McMichaels, but they're critical about the way the media is using the story, I think it's fair to trust them on it.

No, they are asserting that they are not defending the McMichaels while at the same time they go on and on about how it's Arbery's fault for being in a white neighborhood, for visiting the home site, and for not complying to the will of his pursuers. MM, said it outright, perhaps you missed it even though his quote to that effect has been posted 3 or 4 times. To paraphrase; "The idea that this guy was just some innocent black guy out for a jog who just happened to poke his nose in (to the home site) out of curiosty, needs to be rejected."

[JimL]

Don't tell Jimmy the facts. It only confuses him.

I believe you guys are once again fabricating. I've read multiple accounts concerning this incident and not once was Arbery identified as a visitor to the site other than on the day of his murder.

[Cow Poke]

I believe you guys are once again fabricating. I've read multiple accounts concerning this incident and not once was Arbery identified as a visitor to the site other than on the day of his murder.

Read through the thread, Jim - it's been posted multiple times, and the family's own lawyer even acknowledged it, then declared he wasn't going to bother the family anymore asking about other events.

[Cow Poke]

No, they are asserting that they are not defending the McMichaels while at the same time they go on and on about how it's Arbery's fault for being in a white neighborhood....

That is an outright lie. I have NEVER defended the McMichaels, and I have NOT blamed Arbery.

[JimL]

That is an outright lie. I have NEVER defended the McMichaels, and I have NOT blamed Arbery.

Insinuation is your modis operandi, CP.

[firstfloor]

Advice to white policemen: If you wouldn’t do it to a white woman, don’t do it to a black man. Stop killing suspects.

[Cow Poke]

Insinuation is your modis operandi, CP.

You must have gotten your widdle feewins huwt, Jim, cause you're on a roll with lies and false accusations.

[JimL]

You must have gotten your widdle feewins huwt, Jim, cause you're on a roll with lies and false accusations.

You can fool some of the people some of the time...........

[firstfloor]

You must have gotten your widdle feewins huwt, Jim, cause you're on a roll with lies and false accusations.

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[DivineOb]

First, forgive me for not doing a tit for tat treatment of all you've said -- I'm not being dismissive, just tired of repeating myself.

NP. A lot of posts in this thread.

One of my specialties is crisis management and problem resolution. I tend to look at ALL factors. Some are factors over which we have no control. Some are factors that, if we paid attention to them, we could actually change outcomes. Others, as one poster here famously admitted, we simply "GET UPSET".

This has been rather educational for me. While there's at LEAST a chance of saving lives by paying attention to "minor factors", it's not allowed because a bunch of WHITE people here think they know better how to deal with the lives of black people that the black people I've cited, and the ones I work with every day.

If something had happened to your daughter how would you have responded if I pointed out that "she should not have been walking alone dressed like that"? Wouldn't you fear that too many people would be satisfied with that explanation and not make any effort to change society to make things safer for *all* women? Wouldn't it consume you with rage that even a single person would *blame her* for what happened?

It seems it's somehow acceptable to ignore any factors that might actually SAVE a life, but AFTER THE FACT, when there's a dead body, THEN "GET UPSET" and write post after post after post that does the dead person absolutely no good whatsoever, except maybe make the WHITE guys feel better, because "they care".

The dead guy is still dead.

I believe you and I both want a society every everyone is treated the same regardless of skin color or socioeconomic background. It sounds like you don't think that, as a society, asking certain members of that society (i.e. PoC) to modify their behavior vs what is permissible to the dominant group (i.e. Whites) would overly impede us moving towards that idealized situation of complete equality. Is that correct? Or do you just believe it is a necessary evil since the benefits to the individuals who avoid getting beat up / killed is so great vs the effort / impact on their lives?

Yes, I am aware we will never get to that idealized society. I don't see that as a reason to accept less than maximal effort at getting there.

And I have very clearly denounced that, BESIDES looking into the history of the police department involved, seeing this is nothing new.

DO -- are you aware that the victim had a past history with this police department? The he was AWARE that they were racist and abusive?
I've brought that up several times, but it keeps getting ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

It is relevant from the perspective of "What could have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "all of the above")
It is *irrelevant* from the perspective of "What *should* have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "change society")

Surely you agree that it *should* be just as safe for a PoC to be wherever it is safe for a White to go. Those of us "on the left" are rejecting factors which do *not* move us towards that ultimate goal. Indeed, I'd suggest that discussing those details moves us *away* from that goal for a few reasons

1) It gives people an "out" to blame the victim (maybe not you but people like MM)
2) It takes up space in the conversation which we don't have to spare when it comes to trying to solve such a serious and deep rooted problem like race relations
3) It gives *encouragement* to racists and white supremacists

The advice you would give your child, like the advice I would give my child, is going to be different from the advice we express as a society. That these are distinct is a viewpoint not unfamiliar with to those "on the right" who oppose evolution / climate change / LGBTQ tolerance / etc. being taught in schools.

I've pretty much given up on trying to reason with the others. I do kinda laugh about how Charles came in here scolding me because I wasn't "looking at both sides", and he nearly got whiplash backing away when he realized that I was the one who was looking at BOTH sides, and JimL was the one doing his best to shut down anything other than the liberal narrative.

That, to me, is one of the biggest hypocrisies of these kinds of liberals -- they're for FREE SPEECH, unless it doesn't fit the narrative, then it's SHUT UP - we can only GET UPSET AFTER THE FACT, and we can't look at anything else that might actually prevent a death.

I think it's just a very, very fine line to walk if you are going to discuss all contributing factors in a way which doesn't reduce our focus on the gigantic one -- our society is sick and many, many Whites are totally unable to see that, unwilling to address it, or enjoy benefiting from it.

The fact that this suddenly burst of anti-Asian racism ("Kung flu" and the like) goes totally unchallenged on *this board* by a single voice "on the right" should show you how much sick pleasure comes from looking down on "the other" even among devoted Christians. There's no appetite for dealing with these issues among many and they'll accept any tenuous excuse not to.

Bill Cosby (boy, I HATE it that he threw his career away) was one black who was very vocal about personal responsibility -- Quanell X is another who "woke" to the fact that there's "another side" to this whole tragedy, and Juan Williams clearly understands the need to "have the talk". But these WHITE DUDES know so much more about racism than these black men, and the many black men I work with in real life.

It's quite an education to me. I would think that, if we REALLY CARED about this issue, we'd be not just willing - but ANXIOUS - to see anything and EVERYTHING that could save a life.

But, I'm not here so much to convince anybody of anything, but to learn. And, as I've said before, Leon added a whole new dimension when he reminded me that the liberals here are not representative of liberals in real life. TRUE DAT! The liberals I know of in real life are actually quite willing to sit down and discuss "all options".

Thanks for listening. I know we don't agree on everything - or maybe even much at all - but at least you've been willing to discuss things openly without the "shutdown".

Well, it's easy because I know you care about people and aren't looking to blame the victim or make excuses for racists. I missed the early part of this discussion so I don't know how all that went down. I think the issues come down to a conflict between personal responsibility vs societal responsibility / change, which is refreshing since it's a disagreement I can legitimately accept that there are well-intentioned opposing views on.

[Mountain Man]

I believe you guys are once again fabricating. I've read multiple accounts concerning this incident and not once was Arbery identified as a visitor to the site other than on the day of his murder.

Even if that's true, he was still trespassing, and by all accounts, THAT'S what caught the McMichaels' attention and not the color of Arbery's skin.

So now that you have conceded this point, can we dispense with the "jogging while black" race baiting nonsense?

[Leonhard]

Even if that's true, he was still trespassing, and by all accounts, THAT'S what caught the McMichaels' attention and not the color of Arbery's skin.

I'm still curious about whether he was the only one there.

[Mountain Man]

I'm still curious about whether he was the only one there.

There are pictures or video showing him entering and leaving the structure on the day in question. As far as I know, he was alone.

[Cow Poke]

You can fool some of the people some of the time...........

I've been very clear that the killing was not justified in any way shape or form, and I've even gone so far as to do some research into the police department, where there seem to be lots of problems.

Only a dishonest person would claim that I was blaming Arbery in ANY way, which I made clear by using my own daughter as an example.

[Cow Poke]

NP. A lot of posts in this thread.



If something had happened to your daughter how would you have responded if I pointed out that "she should not have been walking alone dressed like that"? Wouldn't you fear that too many people would be satisfied with that explanation and not make any effort to change society to make things safer for *all* women? Wouldn't it consume you with rage that even a single person would *blame her* for what happened?



I believe you and I both want a society every everyone is treated the same regardless of skin color or socioeconomic background. It sounds like you don't think that, as a society, asking certain members of that society (i.e. PoC) to modify their behavior vs what is permissible to the dominant group (i.e. Whites) would overly impede us moving towards that idealized situation of complete equality. Is that correct? Or do you just believe it is a necessary evil since the benefits to the individuals who avoid getting beat up / killed is so great vs the effort / impact on their lives?

Yes, I am aware we will never get to that idealized society. I don't see that as a reason to accept less than maximal effort at getting there.



It is relevant from the perspective of "What could have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "all of the above")
It is *irrelevant* from the perspective of "What *should* have been done to avoid this tragedy?" (which would be "change society")

Surely you agree that it *should* be just as safe for a PoC to be wherever it is safe for a White to go. Those of us "on the left" are rejecting factors which do *not* move us towards that ultimate goal. Indeed, I'd suggest that discussing those details moves us *away* from that goal for a few reasons

1) It gives people an "out" to blame the victim (maybe not you but people like MM)
2) It takes up space in the conversation which we don't have to spare when it comes to trying to solve such a serious and deep rooted problem like race relations
3) It gives *encouragement* to racists and white supremacists

The advice you would give your child, like the advice I would give my child, is going to be different from the advice we express as a society. That these are distinct is a viewpoint not unfamiliar with to those "on the right" who oppose evolution / climate change / LGBTQ tolerance / etc. being taught in schools.



I think it's just a very, very fine line to walk if you are going to discuss all contributing factors in a way which doesn't reduce our focus on the gigantic one -- our society is sick and many, many Whites are totally unable to see that, unwilling to address it, or enjoy benefiting from it.

The fact that this suddenly burst of anti-Asian racism ("Kung flu" and the like) goes totally unchallenged on *this board* by a single voice "on the right" should show you how much sick pleasure comes from looking down on "the other" even among devoted Christians. There's no appetite for dealing with these issues among many and they'll accept any tenuous excuse not to.



Well, it's easy because I know you care about people and aren't looking to blame the victim or make excuses for racists. I missed the early part of this discussion so I don't know how all that went down. I think the issues come down to a conflict between personal responsibility vs societal responsibility / change, which is refreshing since it's a disagreement I can legitimately accept that there are well-intentioned opposing views on.

I have a meeting for the next couple hours, then I'd like to get to this.