Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[oxmixmudd]

Just because you are determined to misconstrue my comments as racist doesn't make them racist.

And just because you claim they are not racist doesn't make them less racist.

[oxmixmudd]

Again, conveniently leaving out key facts, Jim. Why?

I'm not the one claiming you left out 'key facts' without defining what those 'key facts' are BTC.

[Bill the Cat]

The point of my post was to counter MM's claim I was speculating BTC when I was simply recounting the facts. The facts are: Two white men grabbed their guns and chased down a black man who was seen on a property under construction, and in the process of that confrontation, the black man was killed. I did not offer an opinion as to why they chased him down except for what they themselves have admitted - he was on the property of a house under construction.

I suggest you go back and re-read your posts in this thread.

but you aren't complaining about that - are you. You want me to HIDE the fact this was two white men chasing down a black man - right?

Why not say "Two right handed men chased a left handed one"? Why include their races unless you think that they matter?

If I hide that fact, then I'm being fair, is that how it goes? Is it better if I hide their races? Are you more or less inclined to think the fellow killed was treated unjustly if I hide the races? Are you more or less inclined to think the fellow killed was 'up to no good' if I hide their races? Are you more or less inclined to thinking the shooters are guilty if I hide their races?

Unless you think their races were a contributing factor in the killing, which you have no evidence it was, then it is pointless to bring it up except to make it a point.

Ask yourself those questions in private BTC, after you get over your annoyance with me for making the point. Just between you and God. And keep your answers to yourself and deal with them quietly so the roar of this site's unholy drone does not keep you from hearing God's still small voice and keep you from dealing with the truth about what may sit just below the surface.

Your passive aggressive drivel is amusing Jim.

[Mountain Man]

And just because you claim they are not racist doesn't make them less racist.

More kafkatrapping.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

You can't point to a single racist thing I've said. Instead you just toss out a vague accusation that is impossible to disprove and expect me to bow at the altar of political correctness and repent of my unspecified sins.

[oxmixmudd]

I suggest you go back and re-read your posts in this thread.




Why not say "Two right handed men chased a left handed one"? Why include their races unless you think that they matter?

Because they do matter, even though it is in your interests to deny it.

Unless you think their races were a contributing factor in the killing, which you have no evidence it was, then it is pointless to bring it up except to make it a point.

We all know race was a factor BTC. It's just that some people want to pretend it was not.

Your passive aggressive drivel is amusing Jim.

Don't miscast genuine concern for 'passive aggressive'. God's voice is the still small voice. To hear Him and what He has to say to you on this, you need to stop thinking about how much you want to stick me with your next barb and get quiet and ask yourself the questions I just asked. Be honest with yourself, and be honest with God. I'm saying that for your good BTC, not mine.

[Bill the Cat]

It is in this case BTC.

So you'll have no problem proving it then. I'm sure the Prosecutors want to interview you for your inside knowledge!

And it's not hypocrisy - the reality of white oppression of black people is not a fantasy BTC.

Unless you can prove this is based on race, you are speculating.

It is a centuries long reality. A reality that still exists.

Unless you can prove this is based on race, you are speculating.

It exists in gerrymandered voting districts that focus the black vote on a small handful of representatives,

Unless you can prove this is based on race, you are speculating.

in organized campaigns to prevent poor black voters from getting to the polls.

Unless you can prove this is based on race, you are speculating.

It exists in discrimination in housing and neighborhoods, in differential treatment by law enforcement, in the legacies of poverty and violence, in pay disparities, and education. A black child is more likely to go hungry, less likely to get a good education, more likely to die by gunshot, more likely to end up in crime, less likely to be payed as well as his white counterpart. This is REALITY BTC, not fantasy. And it is something that will continue as long as we continue to pretend these realities are somehow 'their fault'. The legacy of slavery and racism continues BTC. It's more subtle, but it is still there, and only God knows what it will take to change it. But ignoring it or pretending it does not exist most certainly will let it live on.

Unless you can prove this is based on race, you are speculating.

[Bill the Cat]

Because they do matter, even though it is in your interests to deny it.

Then you should call the prosecutor and tell him you have proof that this was a racially motivated incident. Call the local news while you are at it, and tell them you have irrefutable facts that the entire situation was based on the race of the victim. And please let me know what time you will be on so I can laugh hysterically at your moonbat routine.

We all know race was a factor BTC. It's just that some people want to pretend it was not.

"We all know" should hold up in court just fine.

Don't miscast genuine concern for 'passive aggressive'. God's voice is the still small voice. To hear Him and what He has to say to you on this, you need to stop thinking about how much you want to stick me with your next barb and get quiet and ask yourself the questions I just asked. Be honest with yourself, and be honest with God. I'm saying that for your good BTC, not mine.

First off, how dare you patronize me. You have no idea what I pray about and for. That I refuse to assign a racial element to this until it is proven to be racial is in no way an indication of my prayer life. Second, it's YOU who should ask God if you are making unfounded assumptions because you "just know"...

[Bill the Cat]

I'm not the one claiming you left out 'key facts' without defining what those 'key facts' are BTC.

Omitted Facts from your analysis:
1) That crimes, both reported and unreported, had recently occurred in the neighborhood
2) That the police had previously asked the father to get involved and asked the neighbor to contact the father
3) That detaining him on suspicious activity is not illegal
4) That the video evidence clearly shows the actual physical confrontation was initiated by Arbery


Questions that I believe still need answering
1) There is no video evidence of the truck passing in front of the house. How did they know Arbery was the one who had entered and exited the construction site?
2) At what point were they notified, and by whom? The neighbor says he didn't. The homeowner says he didn't.

[oxmixmudd]

Then you should call the prosecutor and tell him you have proof that this was a racially motivated incident. Call the local news while you are at it, and tell them you have irrefutable facts that the entire situation was based on the race of the victim. And please let me know what time you will be on so I can laugh hysterically at your moonbat routine.




"We all know" should hold up in court just fine.




First off, how dare you patronize me. You have no idea what I pray about and for. That I refuse to assign a racial element to this until it is proven to be racial is in no way an indication of my prayer life. Second, it's YOU who should ask God if you are making unfounded assumptions because you "just know"...

How dare I what BTC? Ask you to prayerfully consider some introspective questions? How dare I assume you would have the integrity to actually go ask God if you were missing something here? Really? Rest assured I do not ask those questions without realizing I need to do exactly the same thing.

[Mountain Man]

Don't miscast genuine concern for 'passive aggressive'. God's voice is the still small voice. To hear Him and what He has to say to you on this, you need to stop thinking about how much you want to stick me with your next barb and get quiet and ask yourself the questions I just asked. Be honest with yourself, and be honest with God. I'm saying that for your good BTC, not mine.

Right, because you're already perfect in your own eyes and don't need to follow your own advice.

I used to find your blatant hypocrisy shocking, but now I think I would be shocked if you weren't hypocritical.

[Bill the Cat]

How dare I what BTC? Ask you to prayerfully consider some introspective questions? How dare I assume you would have the integrity to actually go ask God if you were missing something here? Really? Rest assured I do not ask those questions without realizing I need to do exactly the same thing.

Then you lied above when you said :

I'm saying that for your good BTC, not mine.

[oxmixmudd]

My comments focus on MM's overall defense, If you think I'm going to go through every detail in every post then you are living in a fantasy land.

As for your 'key facts' that I 'left out':

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...s-not-n1205581

Omitted Facts from your analysis:
1) That crimes, both reported and unreported, had recently occurred in the neighborhood

Not of sufficient severity or frequency to justify the response. There was a handgun stolen from the son. And there where apparently several people people curious enough about the specific property under construction to wander through it. Other than that no break ins for weeks leading up to the killing.

2) That the police had previously asked the father to get involved and asked the neighbor to contact the father

Not left out, its actually of mixed import here. It could point to negligence or improper conduct on the part of the police themselves

3) That detaining him on suspicious activity is not illegal

You must have direct knowledge of the specific crime (so far not established as you note), and pursuit is only allowed if the crime was a felony.

Source: above

Georgia does permit private arrests, although lawyers say it's more likely to happen in low-level offenses such as shoplifting.

According to the doctrine, "a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion."

© Copyright Original Source

4) That the video evidence clearly shows the actual physical confrontation was initiated by Arbery

Not true, not a fact. They where confronting him with arms, he had a right to try to defend himself. There is nothing here that establishes they had any right whatsoever to pursue or detain him. And if Arbery had lived, I would not be surprised if he could have sued them for every penny they had.

Questions that I believe still need answering

1) There is no video evidence of the truck passing in front of the house. How did they know Arbery was the one who had entered and exited the construction site?
2) At what point were they notified, and by whom? The neighbor says he didn't. The homeowner says he didn't.

Exactly the reasons your point 3 above simply is not true. Without 1 AND 2 above, these are just rogue actors shooting a man with no justification or cause.

[oxmixmudd]

Then you lied above when you said :

That is just wrong.

If I was trying to get you to think about it for my benefit, I would be trying to get you to join my way of thinking so things would be easier for me. But I know the chance you'll actually consider those questions is low, and that you are most likely going to berate me for asking them as you are now, and that is NOT to my benefit at all. But IF you can find it in yourself to do a little soul searching on the topic - it would in fact be to YOUR benefit. The best thing for me bill would have been NOT to put those sentences in my post. And I knew that as I wrote that text. I did not write those words for myself, but for you.

At the same time, anytime one person asks another person to do some soul searching, that person should be ready to do the same. So I'm trying to make the point that in asking you to do that soul searching, I'm not trying to say I may not need to do the same thing.

[Leonhard]

There's actually an interesting question here. If three guys in two vans have been pursuing you, and one of them drives up ahead of you and cuts you off and someone steps out of it with a shotgun in a threatening manner. Do you have the right to self-defense in that moment?

[KingsGambit]

There's actually an interesting question here. If three guys in two vans have been pursuing you, and one of them drives up ahead of you and cuts you off and someone steps out of it with a shotgun in a threatening manner. Do you have the right to self-defense in that moment?

From a legal perspective, it seems clear that the right to self defense is not absolute. In the case of no-knock warrant raids, there have been cases where it's been done on the wrong house and the person, startled, had no idea it was law enforcement breaking in. Law enforcement is still allowed to shoot the person defending himself against whom he assumes is a burglar.