Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[JimL]

On what basis do you make that assertion? They were wrestling for control of the gun, so it is possible and plausible that all three shots were accidental. From what I remember of the video, the fatal shot was fired as Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun and was yanking it towards himself while repeatedly punching the younger McMichael in the head who was attempting to dodge the blows, and after the shot was fired and Arbery stopped his attack, the younger McMichael immediately lowered the weapon and backed away.

Highly unlikely that Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun unless the shotgun was pointed at him in the first place. Arbery was then justified to have tried to wrest the gun from McMichaels. I think it's what might be called the unarmed victim standing his ground. If McMichaels ends up pulling the trigger, accidentally or not, that's on him, not on the victim.

[oxmixmudd]

On what basis do you make that assertion? They were wrestling for control of the gun, so it is possible and plausible that all three shots were accidental. From what I remember of the video, the fatal shot was fired as Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun and was yanking it towards himself while repeatedly punching the younger McMichael in the head who was attempting to dodge the blows, and after the shot was fired and Arbery stopped his attack, the younger McMichael immediately lowered the weapon and backed away.

the copies of the video i've seen are not clear enough to disern that level of detail.

What can be seen is an arrogant shooter strutting away from Arbery as/after he falls to the ground. Nothing even close to 'my God what have I done' but rather, 'There, I got him'

[Charles]

the copies of the video i've seen are not clear enough to disern that level of detail.

Perhaps you did not focus on the facts?

[Mountain Man]

Highly unlikely that Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun unless the shotgun was pointed at him in the first place. Arbery was then justified to have tried to wrest the gun from McMichaels. I think it's what might be called the unarmed victim standing his ground. If McMichaels ends up pulling the trigger, accidentally or not, that's on him, not on the victim.

Watch the video instead of speculating. Arbery rounds the truck, and we can't see the initial confrontation, but then we see the younger McMichaels backpedaling with the gun pointed to the side while Arbery has a grip on the barrel and starts punching McMicahels in the head. This is when the initial shot is fired. They leave the frame for several seconds at which point we hear another shot fired, and when we can see them again, Arbery appears to have retained a grip on the barrel which is now pointed towards his midsection. He yanks it towards himself while continuing to punch McMichaels in the head, the latter doing everything he can to dodge the blows. At this point the third shot is fired which strikes Arbery in the torso. Arbery immediately lets go of the gun, and McMichaels lowers the weapon and quickly backs away.

[Mountain Man]

the copies of the video i've seen are not clear enough to disern that level of detail.

Watch the video embedded in post #1189. It is very clear. You can even use YouTube's speed controls to slow the video down to 25% to get a good idea of exactly what transpired.

What can be seen is an arrogant shooter strutting away from Arbery as/after he falls to the ground. Nothing even close to 'my God what have I done' but rather, 'There, I got him'

No, that's not what can be seen, that's what you see because you are allowing your bias to color the facts. What we actually see is that after the fatal shot is fired, the younger McMichael lowers his weapon and backs away. I personally can't tell his state of mind based on the video, but perhaps you can read minds.

[Charles]

Highly unlikely that Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun unless the shotgun was pointed at him in the first place. [...]

Watch the video instead of speculating. Arbery rounds the truck, and we can't see the initial confrontation[...]

[Mountain Man]

I'm not sure what you find so amusing. I'm just describing what we can actually see in the video. Maybe you think my description is inaccurate, but you haven't bothered to explain how.

[Cow Poke]

I believe that this horse has been sufficiently beaten so as never to run the fruited plains again.

MSM has moved on to other matters.

[Leonhard]

I believe that this horse has been sufficiently beaten so as never to run the fruited plains again.

MSM has moved on to other matters.

Oh like Botham Shem, I won't this forum forget this. I'll be keeping an eye on the trial.

[Cow Poke]

Oh like Botham Shem, I won't this forum forget this. I'll be keeping an eye on the trial.

My point is that the participants in this thread have arrived at that point where the same things are being said over and over and over and over..... and I don't believe anybody has changed their mind even a teeny bit.

(Well, except me, cause I had originally accepted that Arbery lived 10 miles away, but, having done my own checking, found that to be dubious at best)

CARRY ON!!!!

[Charles]

My point is that the participants in this thread have arrived at that point where the same things are being said over and over and over and over..... and I don't believe anybody has changed their mind even a teeny bit.

(Well, except me, cause I had originally accepted that Arbery lived 10 miles away, but, having done my own checking, found that to be dubious at best)

CARRY ON!!!!

There is probably some truth to that. I have not changed my mind, rather I have seen my suspicions supported time and time and time again. Somethings become more and more obvious the longer people keep saying the same things, focus on the same things and the like.

[Watermelon]

Or just say "I wasn't made aware of that prowler until the next day." or "It was three a.m. I was asleep in bed."

One difference is that Arbery went in during the day, was observed going in and coming out by a neighbour. IIRC the others were captured at night on camera (not an alarm).




See my post here on Georgia law. I think the McMichaels were asked to keep an eye on the property as there had been prowlers there. Arbery was seen entering and leaving by a witness, who phoned the police. Not sure how the McMichaels knew - if it was the witness who told them, and he maintained visual contact with Arbery that seems pretty solid.

Arbery committed a crime - criminal trespass by going in to the property (misdemeanor). If he went in with intent to steal, or intent to come back later to steal, that is a felony. That we know Arbery didn't steal anything is knowledge no-one at the time had. I think they would (and probably could) successfully argue that they wanted to talk to Arbery and ask what he was doing in the house - this would be how you would establish intent (and hence a felony).

Anyway, I think under Georgia law, trespass would enough for someone to make a citizen's arrest if "...the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge." That might be the case here if an eyewitness immediately informed the McMichaels. Was Bryan (in the following vehicle) the person who saw Arbery and made the call??

"If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion." IOW they don't have to see him doing it, or have immediate knowledge of it. I can see their attorney arguing that they suspected Arbery of burglary in the first degree (note for this offense it is NOT required that anything actually be stolen, the offender's intent is sufficient) and wanted to talk to him / get him to wait so the police could talk to him. Or even that they had grounds to suspect him of intent to steal, i.e. burglary in the first degree, and thus were legally making a citizen's arrest (holding someone and truing them over ASAP to the police)







See above.

I agree that they made some poor choices. Some of those are obvious to us, because we know things they could not have known. I don't think we can judge them for that. I think that they can argue quite strongly that they were in compliance with the law.

What they did wrong (but not illegally, IMHO) was stopping and getting out of the truck.

There is 0% chance they can show they had immediate knowledge the victim was trespassing without the land owner having given them express direction so without that there can be no legal justification for their pursuit.

[Cow Poke]

There is probably some truth to that. I have not changed my mind, rather I have seen my suspicions supported time and time and time again. Somethings become more and more obvious the longer people keep saying the same things, focus on the same things and the like.

[JimL]

On what basis do you make that assertion? They were wrestling for control of the gun, so it is possible and plausible that all three shots were accidental. From what I remember of the video, the fatal shot was fired as Arbery had his hand on the barrel of the shotgun and was yanking it towards himself while repeatedly punching the younger McMichael in the head who was attempting to dodge the blows, and after the shot was fired and Arbery stopped his attack, the younger McMichael immediately lowered the weapon and backed away.

You don't accidently keep your finger on the trigger and fire it 3 times if you are just fighting for control of the shot gun. But that was nice of Travis to lower the gun after killing Arbury.

[Mountain Man]

You don't accidently keep your finger on the trigger and fire it 3 times if you are just fighting for control of the shot gun.

I'd love to see you try and prove.

Anyway, the reason McMichaels lowering his weapon and retreating is significant is because that's the action I'd expect from someone with intent to stop and not intent to kill. If it was his intent to kill then I would have expected him to aim and fire one final shot to finish the job and not back away with his weapon lowered while the other guy was still moving.