Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[Mountain Man]

...you are responsible to knowing what the dominant usage of the term is and how others will take it.

I do not believe I am under that obligation, but thanks anyway.

Now that my point has been made clear, shall we continue with the discussion?

[Cow Poke]

Calm yourself, CP.

This is the kind of dumb crap you pull when you've said something really really stupid.

You're getting upset with all those !!!!!!!!'s Methinks, CP, you doth protest to much.

Those exclamation marks were mocking your idiot notion that GETTING UPSET is somehow helpful. You're the one I'm quoting.

[shunyadragon]

I do not believe I am under that obligation, but thanks anyway.

Now that my point has been made clear, shall we continue with the discussion?

Your point did not reflect the facts of the case.

[Mountain Man]

Your point did not reflect the facts of the case.

Do you dispute that Arbery is seen on video visiting the site on multiple occasions and looking around?

[DivineOb]

But what if that "minor contributing factor" played a part in the rape never happening?

Because most tragedies could be avoided if any number of things had gone differently. If we just list the possible ways a tragedy could have been avoided we will probably focus on the one which is either 1) easiest 2) doesn't affect us personally 3) supports our preconceived ideas 4) (probably others which I can't think of just now).

*Of course* the easiest thing would have been for Arbery to not go to that neighborhood or if he did not visit that house. *Of course* he should have "known better" (I don't agree but let's go with that for now). But surely you agree that the *right* thing to do is do the hard work of changing society so we don't need Arbery to do what we expect of him in order to be safe.

Sometimes, the smallest detail can be a major factor, or there can be a series of points at which something can go terribly wrong. Many times, we see a tragedy that was a combination of a number of events, ANY ONE OF WHICH could have prevented the tragedy.

All I'm saying is - if this is a crucial issue (and it is) why not do EVERYTHING we can to intervene besides just "GETTING UPSET".

To the extent we can urge PoC to adjust their behavior without compromising the much harder work of changing society to make it safe for PoC we should absolutely do that. Just like we should do that for women when they are going out alone and drinking. But that's a really fine line.

I have a hard time envisioning a world where we can advise PoC to watch where they go while also sending the message to white nationalists that they are not welcome in our society. I think back to Trump's "people on both sides" comment which *did* embolden white nationalists (they themselves said so!). I don't see how any message which contains even the slightest reference to "PoC need to be careful in white neighborhoods" won't just embolden the worst actors.

There is absolutely NO WAY I'm calling for "PoC" (as you call them) to "stay out of all white neighborhoods for their own safety" --- that wasn't the only factor involved here. Had he never gone in that house, we wouldn't even be discussing this. Now, does that mean he's STUPID, as one poster stupidly claimed was my intent, or does it just illustrate the fact that there are often things that we do that have unintended consequences.

I don't think PoC is an offensive term :). At least I see it used plenty by people who fit that descriptor.

In any case, I'm just stuck on the fact that we want to discuss contributing factors on one hand when on the other hand we have murderous thugs who thought (rightly so!) that they would escape any consequences from law enforcement. The fact that they weren't arrested until two months later when this became a national issue says the rot runs deep.

Look, DO, I know you've been battling conservatives, but as far as I know, you and I haven't had a beef. We tend to lump people into "us and them" -- you have shown me no reason to "do battle" with you - you asked some good questions, and as far as I know, we're having an adult conversation, and I'm ready and willing to continue it. I actually find it refreshing.

You're not doing the knee-jerk "Oh, so you're saying he's STUPID" and nutty stuff like that.

I appreciate that and I feel for you that you're the lone voice of reason expressing your perspective the majority of time.

[Cow Poke]

In any case, I'm just stuck on the fact that we want to discuss contributing factors on one hand when on the other hand we have murderous thugs who thought (rightly so!) that they would escape any consequences from law enforcement.

First, forgive me for not doing a tit for tat treatment of all you've said -- I'm not being dismissive, just tired of repeating myself.

One of my specialties is crisis management and problem resolution. I tend to look at ALL factors. Some are factors over which we have no control. Some are factors that, if we paid attention to them, we could actually change outcomes. Others, as one poster here famously admitted, we simply "GET UPSET".

This has been rather educational for me. While there's at LEAST a chance of saving lives by paying attention to "minor factors", it's not allowed because a bunch of WHITE people here think they know better how to deal with the lives of black people that the black people I've cited, and the ones I work with every day.

It seems it's somehow acceptable to ignore any factors that might actually SAVE a life, but AFTER THE FACT, when there's a dead body, THEN "GET UPSET" and write post after post after post that does the dead person absolutely no good whatsoever, except maybe make the WHITE guys feel better, because "they care".

The dead guy is still dead.

The fact that they weren't arrested until two months later when this became a national issue says the rot runs deep.

And I have very clearly denounced that, BESIDES looking into the history of the police department involved, seeing this is nothing new.

DO -- are you aware that the victim had a past history with this police department? The he was AWARE that they were racist and abusive?
I've brought that up several times, but it keeps getting ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

I appreciate that and I feel for you that you're the lone voice of reason expressing your perspective the majority of time.

I've pretty much given up on trying to reason with the others. I do kinda laugh about how Charles came in here scolding me because I wasn't "looking at both sides", and he nearly got whiplash backing away when he realized that I was the one who was looking at BOTH sides, and JimL was the one doing his best to shut down anything other than the liberal narrative.

That, to me, is one of the biggest hypocrisies of these kinds of liberals -- they're for FREE SPEECH, unless it doesn't fit the narrative, then it's SHUT UP - we can only GET UPSET AFTER THE FACT, and we can't look at anything else that might actually prevent a death.

Bill Cosby (boy, I HATE it that he threw his career away) was one black who was very vocal about personal responsibility -- Quanell X is another who "woke" to the fact that there's "another side" to this whole tragedy, and Juan Williams clearly understands the need to "have the talk". But these WHITE DUDES know so much more about racism than these black men, and the many black men I work with in real life.

It's quite an education to me. I would think that, if we REALLY CARED about this issue, we'd be not just willing - but ANXIOUS - to see anything and EVERYTHING that could save a life.

But, I'm not here so much to convince anybody of anything, but to learn. And, as I've said before, Leon added a whole new dimension when he reminded me that the liberals here are not representative of liberals in real life. TRUE DAT! The liberals I know of in real life are actually quite willing to sit down and discuss "all options".

Thanks for listening. I know we don't agree on everything - or maybe even much at all - but at least you've been willing to discuss things openly without the "shutdown".

[shunyadragon]

Do you dispute that Arbery is seen on video visiting the site on multiple occasions and looking around?

No, I am disputing that there is remotely any evidence for any other motive than simply to get a drink of water. The homeowner was indifferent to the people walking through the house under construction, and knew people used it for a source of water. There was never anything missing nor evidence of any other motive, except your dark motives.

Where is the evidence of anything elese?

Still waiting . . .

[Cow Poke]

No, I am disputing that there is remotely any evidence for any other motive than simply to get a drink of water

Actually, the "drink of water" is supposition. No evidence for that whatsoever.

[shunyadragon]

Actually, the "drink of water" is supposition. No evidence for that whatsoever.

Again, again and again . . . What is the evidence of anything else?

[Cow Poke]

Again, again and again . . . What is the evidence of anything else?

So, in Shunyworld, not having evidence of something else is evidence of something? You are amusing. You would be a riot as a witness in court.

[oxmixmudd]

Actually, the "drink of water" is supposition. No evidence for that whatsoever.

He was observed going to where the water source was and then returning. He was on a run, a stop for water is a perhaps as strong a motive as any given nothing was ever taken. Ergo, "No evidence whatsoever" is not accurate.

[Cow Poke]

He was observed going to where the water source was and then returning. He was on a run, a stop for water is a perhaps as strong a motive as any given nothing was ever taken. Ergo, "No evidence whatsoever" is not accurate.

Correction - no DIRECT evidence whatsoever. Some CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, speculation and supposition.

[oxmixmudd]

Correction - no DIRECT evidence whatsoever. Some CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, speculation and supposition.

Correct. All that is known for sure is that he stopped there. For all we know the reason he ran there and the reason he stopped there is that he was imagining that one day he would be able to build a house like that for himself, and live in a nice neighborhood like that.

[JimL]

This is the kind of dumb crap you pull when you've said something really really stupid.

Dumb crap, what? I was just emulating you, CP.

Those exclamation marks were mocking your idiot notion that GETTING UPSET is somehow helpful. You're the one I'm quoting.

It actually is helpful, CP. If people didn't get upset, thanks to the free press reporting on it, when they see this kind of injustice happening, then it would just continue. For instance, when the police suffocated and killed Mr Garner 5 years ago in N.Y., it took the police dept 5 years to fire the officer involved. A day or two ago, a very simmilar incident took place in Minnisota, and like Garner, this victims last words were I can't breath, he died, and the 4 officers involved were fired almost immediately. That kind of change doesn't happen if people don't GET UPSET about it. It's bad enough that Arbery needlessly lost his life, so to is the corruptness in the justice system and its attempted cover-up.

[Cow Poke]

Dumb crap, what? I was just emulating you, CP.

Yet another thing do after getting caught saying something really stupid. You go away and sulk for a bit, then you come back with more dumb crap.