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Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Indeed, two shots are clearly heard in the video, and we dont see any punches thrown till after the first shot was fired.
    That is false Jim. The first shot was not fired until after Arbery physically engaged the son in front of the truck.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Charles View Post
      You are not disagreeing with me but yourself on this one. You have claimed you are not accusing the victim and that you are not trying to justify the actions taken against him. Yet it is rather obvious that you are trying to accuse him (or to claim things making him look bad are "facts") and when pressed you simply point out (contrary to what you have said earlier) that it is important in order to evaluate the actions taken against him (with regards to these you are much more reluctant to establish any facts). So, it seems you want to have it both ways. I think this is what Ox saw at a very early point, and you are simply fooling yourself if you refuse to see it.
      Sorry Chuck, but no he isn't. The relevant facts of the case include the motive for attempting to detain him. As stated, the local police were using the dad as a local resource, which isn't unprecedented, especially in rural counties. That some of the relevant facts "make Arbery look bad" is inconsequential to their value as facts.

      And for JimL to keep harping on Zimmerman, who was found not guilty in a court of law, shows just how little respect he has for the law and our justice system's rules.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Sorry Chuck, but no he isn't. The relevant facts of the case include the motive for attempting to detain him. As stated, the local police were using the dad as a local resource, which isn't unprecedented, especially in rural counties. That some of the relevant facts "make Arbery look bad" is inconsequential to their value as facts.

        And for JimL to keep harping on Zimmerman, who was found not guilty in a court of law, shows just how little respect he has for the law and our justice system's rules.
        None of what you point to is of any importance with regard to the fact that MM is trying to accuse the victim and he is trying to justify the actions of those who confronted him while claiming he is not trying to do so. I am simply pointing that out, I am not discussing facts. The only thing I point out with regards to "facts" is that MM seems to be more interested in some "facts" than others and more reluctant to accept certain other things as "facts".
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
          You have claimed you are not accusing the victim and that you are not trying to justify the actions taken against him.
          I'm not, but neither am I saying that their actions weren't justified. I'm not embracing either conclusion because we still don't have all the facts. This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I'm not, but neither am I saying that their actions weren't justified. I'm not embracing either conclusion because we still don't have all the facts. This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
            Here is what you left out of my post:

            Yet it is rather obvious that you are trying to accuse him (or to claim things making him look bad are "facts") and when pressed you simply point out (contrary to what you have said earlier) that it is important in order to evaluate the actions taken against him (with regards to these you are much more reluctant to establish any facts). So, it seems you want to have it both ways. I think this is what Ox saw at a very early point, and you are simply fooling yourself if you refuse to see it.
            If you had included that it would be obvious that your answer did not adress my points.

            Try again.
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I'm not, but neither am I saying that their actions weren't justified. I'm not embracing either conclusion because we still don't have all the facts. This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
              But, you should be saying that their actions weren't justified, because they weren't. It is illegal for an armed posse to form and go after a suspect.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                Try again.
                Okay, let's try this again:

                I'm not saying the actions of either party were justified or unjustified because we still don't have all the facts. This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                  It is illegal for an armed posse to form and go after a suspect.
                  Is it? What specific law did they break? Do you have a source? If it's true that their attempt to detain Arbery was unlawful then that would be relevant.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Okay, let's try this again:

                    I'm not saying the actions of either party were justified or unjustified because we still don't have all the facts. This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
                    Still not adressing this:

                    Yet it is rather obvious that you are trying to accuse him (or to claim things making him look bad are "facts") and when pressed you simply point out (contrary to what you have said earlier) that it is important in order to evaluate the actions taken against him (with regards to these you are much more reluctant to establish any facts). So, it seems you want to have it both ways. I think this is what Ox saw at a very early point, and you are simply fooling yourself if you refuse to see it.
                    You have ignored it two times by now. The silence says a lot.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      [...]
                      I'm not saying the actions of either party were justified or unjustified because we still don't have all the facts.
                      So, let's see if you insist none of the actions described by yourself below are to be regarded as unjustified:

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      First of all, entering a property under construction is trespassing.

                      Secondly, this guy wasn't out jogging, and he didn't just happen to wander by and poke his head in out of curiosity. The neighborhood in question was ten-miles from his home, and he had cased the place at night on multiple occasions. Furthermore, let's not pretend that construction sites aren't a popular target for thieves.

                      Third, he was shot as a direct result of his own aggressive actions. If he had quietly waited for the police to arrive then he would still be alive.

                      I'm not saying he deserved to be shot, or that the guys were necessarily right to approach him while armed, or any nonsense like, but this lie that he was just some innocent black man out for a jog needs to be rejected. Come on, ox, I thought you were a defender of the truth.
                      It is interesting to see how you, once again, contradict statements made such a short time ago.

                      This certainly puts another of your statements into perspective:

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      This case can easily go either way, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. Are you?
                      Contradicting one self is not being open minded, Mountain Man.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                        So, let's see if you insist none of the actions described by yourself below are to be regarded as unjustified:



                        It is interesting to see how you, once again, contradict statements made such a short time ago.

                        This certainly puts another of your statements into perspective:



                        Contradicting one self is not being open minded, Mountain Man.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          The relevance is that Arbery wasn't randomly targeted like some have claimed. That speaks to motive.
                          I thought that was obvious. They thought he was a thief and proceeded to make a clumsy citizens arrest that went horribly wrong. It’s this latter vigilante act that I’m focusing on.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            No - that is not a lie. I said "it is your bias that keeps you from realizing ...". Do you understand what that means MM? I means that you don't understand that is what you are doing. And I then go on to explain why. What it is about your bias that is blinding you to the fact you are, in fact, providing justification for (i.e justifying) these guys.

                            So, my logic could be flawed that leads me to conclude you are unknowingly justifying this situation, but there is no 'lie' involved here. I am not saying something about you I know to be untrue. I am saying you don't understand the implications of your words.
                            Perhaps he fully understands your interpretation of the implications of his words, but rejects that interpretation.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Redneck is a racist and derogatory term. How very progressive of you...
                              When did "redneck" become a racist term?
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I thought that was obvious. They thought he was a thief and proceeded to make a clumsy citizens arrest that went horribly wrong. It’s this latter vigilante act that I’m focusing on.
                                So then it comes down to, assuming the shooting wasn't an accident, when was the decision made to pull the trigger?
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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