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Thread: Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    CP's just trying to say that unlike himself, liberals have no integrity.
    Not liberals in general, but you, yeah.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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  3. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    An eye-opening video. Seeing how belligerent and confrontational Arbery was with the police, it's hard so see him as scared and desperate when confronted by the McMichaels, which is the argument some have given for why he attacked a man armed with a shotgun. It certainly puts this case in a different light.

    AND, NO, I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE ACTIONS AGAINST HIM WERE JUSTIFIED! (I wish I didn't have to keep saying that, but some of you guys... )
    So, you're claiming this videos justify him being killed?




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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Defending oneself has nothing to do with whether you are scared or not.

    With respect to you and CP, the above is what is called protesting too much.
    5 pin.jpeg

    If you are not saying that the actions against him were justified, then what the heck have you been arguing about?
    Well, the fact that BOTH of us have very CLEARLY said the actions against him were not justified... and you even snottily proclaimed you agreed, perhaps it's time to actually read what I've been saying, Jim.

    And the reason I posted the video was right there in the post --- it was in response to questions Leon was asking.
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 05-28-2020 at 05:35 PM. Reason: unnecessarily harsh
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    5 pin.jpeg



    Well, the fact that BOTH of us have very CLEARLY said the actions against him were not justified... and you even snottily proclaimed you agreed, perhaps it's time to actually read what I've been saying, Jim.

    And the reason I posted the video was right there in the post --- it was in response to questions Leon was asking.
    Yep, actually MM has said it was not justified, but only after insinuating that he was up to no good. Asserting that he has been casing the joint at night on multiple occassions, an assertion that you suggested as well, and he also said that the idea that this was just some innocent "black guy" out for a jog needs to be rejected. Then you look up Arbery's history to see if you can't paint him in a bad light as if his past has anything to do with the case. I was wondering if you had also thought to look up the McMichaels gangs past history? Of course you didn't, nor should you have, because their pasts has nothing to do with it, and neither does Arbery's.
    Last edited by JimL; 05-28-2020 at 06:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yep, actually MM has said it was not justified, but only after insinuating that he was up to no good. Asserting that he has been casing the joint at night on multiple occassions, an assertion that you suggested as well, and he also said that the idea that this was just some innocent "black guy" out for a jog needs to be rejected.
    You'll have to take that up with MM.

    Then you look up Arbery's history to see if you can't paint him in a bad light as if his past has anything to do with the case.
    Yet another outright lie, Mr TrumpJr. I was actually looking into my prior comment that the police department was corrupt, based on what the family lawyer had said, then I watched the entire video.

    I was wondering if you had also thought to look up the McMichaels gangs past history? Of course you didn't, nor should you have, because their pasts has nothing to do with it, and neither does Arbery's.
    I didn't look up McMichaels' history because I have already clearly stated they were in the wrong. Absolutely ZERO justification for what they did.

    Seriously, Jim, are you REALLY this dadburned STUPID in real life, or are you just playing some kind of childish game to see if you can provoke people? Cause all you're doing is showing yourself to be a fool.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Can we put the specifics of this awful event aside for a moment?

    There are apparently two definitions of 'racism' at play here.

    The dictionary definition (i.e., the actual meaning) is :

    noun
    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
    I take the relevant meanings here to be (1) and (3).

    Note that both involve someone having a belief or attitude. So, to say that someone is racist requires us to know what their belief or attitude is. How can we do that?

    The most certain way is by conversation and discussion with that person. We can talk, ask questions to clarify, allow them to express their thinking and reasoning, and then come to a conclusion based on that.

    A less certain way is to look at what they have said and/or written in the past. Less certain because there is more room for ambiguity and misinterpretation, and because their views may have changed.

    An even less certain way is to look at their actions. Why? Because actions can be ambiguous, and because we often don't know, based on actions alone, the thinking or reasoning that drives the actions.

    We see someone throw a brick through a house front window at night. We assume that they are a bad person, committing a crime. On investigation, they are a passer-by who saw smoke coming from the side kitchen window, investigated, saw there was afire, and couldn't raise the occupants. They broke the window as the only way to get in a save the occupants.

    So...

    ...an accusation of racism, to be sustained, requires that we know the belief or attitude of the person we are accusing of racism. Actions alone are often not sufficient to prove racism, especially without any inquiry into the person's motivations and thinking at the time.


    A racial incident is one involving people of different races. It's not automatically a racist incident, unless we know the beliefs and attitudes of the people involved.

    Officer: "Why did you punch him?"

    Suspect 1: "Because he threatened to beat my dog, and I believed that was the only way to stop him." - Not racist, regardless of the races of the people involved.

    Suspect 2: "Because he's a filthy Chinese, and they only come here to spread disease and steal our jobs." - Racist, regardless of the race of Suspect 2

    Suspect 3: "Because he tried to steal my wallet. Just like those awful Chinese, that steal everything from everyone else." Complainant is ethnically Indian.

    - Suspect 3 is a racist (prejudiced against Chinese), but the incident is not a racist incident (reason was attempt to steal wallet, not race of complainant). We should probably enquire further to see if Suspect 3 is prejudiced against Indians as well as Chinese, but unless we know that the reason he punched him was because of his race, it is not a racist incident.



    Now, back to the case at hand. Was it a racist incident? I submit that we don't (yet) know, because we have no substantial evidence about what the McMichael's were thinking, and why exactly they did what they did. I doubt we'll ever know, because they aren't going to come out - especially in the current climate - and admit that, even if it is true.

    Was it a racial incident? Yes, because it involved people of different races.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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    Just to put this out there, I hope you assume this about me but I never would have referenced your daughter if I had this background beforehand. I'm very sorry you had to go through that and I'm very glad to hear that those days are behind her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Wow...... I guess I'm guilty, because in our Jobs for Life program, we help blacks and Hispanics learn how to write resumes, sit for interviews, know what to expect of prospective employers.... so I guess I'm guilty of "asking PoC to modify their behavior" to obtain employment, get promotions and raises, regain self-respect....
    Hah, I was trying to speak 'generically' about 'modifying behavior' to save from having to go back through the thread and find exactly what was the advice you would have given Arbery. Obviously "modifying behavior" can be the right thing to do if it helps us fit into society better.


    OK, I just laughed out loud, because, at the risk of being accused of tooting my own horn, I don't think there's probably anybody on this board who puts more actual effort into "working the problem" than me. I think that's why I get so frustrated with the do-gooders who just yak and yak and yak and do all this phony virtue signaling.
    You probably *do* do more than anyone else here. Certainly more than me.



    The problem, as I see it, is there's WAY too much focus on BLAME, and FAR too little focus on solutions.
    So, I think this will help me understand things a bit. Ignoring Coronavirus, what can I actually do to prevent the next killing in this vein? I don't have the time or resources to meaningfully help others until my kids are at least in high school. I do have more money I can pay in taxes. I can vote for politicians who I am convinced will do the right thing. I would love to be part of the solution.


    And, again - I mean no disrespect - but that's "working the narrative" instead of "working the problem".
    Sure, it's so very noble to be seen as "moving toward that goal", because that's the popular thing to do.
    The HARD thing to do is to look at ALL aspects of the problem, and actually try to do things that KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE while we're "working the problem".
    Ok, so let's agree that someone should have told Arbery that where society is today he has to keep his nose absolutely clean to avoid trouble. What's prong 2 of this plan to "work the problem"?


    Think about that ---- you think people are SO STUPID that they are incapable of working ALL ANGLES of the problem, simply because LIFE IS THAT PRECIOUS?
    To me, this is part of the "stinking thinking" of the liberal mindset ---- Let's ONLY focus the work that is popular and will get us a big pat on the back and make us feel good.
    Let's NOT do the HARD STUFF for which we will be criticized and maligned, but might actually SAVE lives.
    It's not limited to liberals (perhaps it is more prevalent, I don't know). But take abortion -- there is a large group who only wants to talk about 1) banning abortion and 2) encouraging abstinence. I can point at plenty of things which (let's stipulate) would reduce the number of abortions compared to what we have today and I am certain I will hit a complete wall of resistance like it sounds like you are hitting in this thread. If you take your religiosity out of the picture for a second do you see what I mean?


    But, PLEASE tell me how me meeting with 40-60 black men on a weekday morning over breakfast helping them to deal with the REALITIES of life -- WHILE WORKING TO CHANGE THOSE REALITIES -- "gives encouragement to racists and white supremacists, and why I should give a flyin' flip.
    Ok, so here's what I'm going to do. If I am responding to you as if you are speaking to "society" at large and not just in a private conversation between a few people I'll let you know. It seems like some of the misunderstanding is coming from you thinking that any of the negative stuff I'm saying is directed at you at all (it's not). I agree with you that Arbery should have known better and someone more adult than him should have made sure he did too.


    Why? Because we love our children MORE than we love society? I mean, sure, I do, but do I use that as an excuse not to be just as honest with "society" as I am my own child? That's cowardly.
    Because I will give my kids advice about how the real world works which I won't say out loud in general conversation because it means something different in 1:1 conversation than when spoken to society at large. Not just because I want to virtue signal.


    Um...... I didn't see that coming ---- that giant broad brush flyin' around everywhere is... from YOUR hand?
    Delete it then, it's not worth drilling into. Just understand when I say "those 'on the right'" I mean a subset of people, not everyone.


    It takes ZERO courage to wave the flag everybody else is waving and say all the right things and be seen as a 'social justice warrior' or whatever, ACTING like "I loves black people so much....."
    Then there's the COURAGE of actually working the problem, knowing that these same (in some cases) lazy blabbermouth do-gooders will ATTACK those who are actually working the problem every day.
    See above. I hope you understand that some of it at least is well-intentioned and from folks who don't know what else they can do to help the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    Just to put this out there, I hope you assume this about me but I never would have referenced your daughter if I had this background beforehand. I'm very sorry you had to go through that and I'm very glad to hear that those days are behind her.



    Hah, I was trying to speak 'generically' about 'modifying behavior' to save from having to go back through the thread and find exactly what was the advice you would have given Arbery. Obviously "modifying behavior" can be the right thing to do if it helps us fit into society better.



    You probably *do* do more than anyone else here. Certainly more than me.




    So, I think this will help me understand things a bit. Ignoring Coronavirus, what can I actually do to prevent the next killing in this vein? I don't have the time or resources to meaningfully help others until my kids are at least in high school. I do have more money I can pay in taxes. I can vote for politicians who I am convinced will do the right thing. I would love to be part of the solution.



    Ok, so let's agree that someone should have told Arbery that where society is today he has to keep his nose absolutely clean to avoid trouble. What's prong 2 of this plan to "work the problem"?



    It's not limited to liberals (perhaps it is more prevalent, I don't know). But take abortion -- there is a large group who only wants to talk about 1) banning abortion and 2) encouraging abstinence. I can point at plenty of things which (let's stipulate) would reduce the number of abortions compared to what we have today and I am certain I will hit a complete wall of resistance like it sounds like you are hitting in this thread. If you take your religiosity out of the picture for a second do you see what I mean?



    Ok, so here's what I'm going to do. If I am responding to you as if you are speaking to "society" at large and not just in a private conversation between a few people I'll let you know. It seems like some of the misunderstanding is coming from you thinking that any of the negative stuff I'm saying is directed at you at all (it's not). I agree with you that Arbery should have known better and someone more adult than him should have made sure he did too.



    Because I will give my kids advice about how the real world works which I won't say out loud in general conversation because it means something different in 1:1 conversation than when spoken to society at large. Not just because I want to virtue signal.



    Delete it then, it's not worth drilling into. Just understand when I say "those 'on the right'" I mean a subset of people, not everyone.



    See above. I hope you understand that some of it at least is well-intentioned and from folks who don't know what else they can do to help the issue.

    That was a pretty good and constructive post. More please.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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  13. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    Just to put this out there, I hope you assume this about me but I never would have referenced your daughter if I had this background beforehand. I'm very sorry you had to go through that and I'm very glad to hear that those days are behind her.
    I have actually found you to be refreshingly open, while others simply have their minds made up and their eyes slammed shut. And, yes, those days are behind us. I was a little skeptical for the first 6 months or so, because we'd "been there before". It's well into 2 years now, and she is absolutely a whole different person. She has recently told a friend of mine "It's so great to be a human again!"

    Hah, I was trying to speak 'generically' about 'modifying behavior' to save from having to go back through the thread and find exactly what was the advice you would have given Arbery. Obviously "modifying behavior" can be the right thing to do if it helps us fit into society better.
    Truth is - in many cases, it's white people who will do the hiring -- so we can scream and yell about inequities, or we can .... GET A JOB!!!! OR, as we encourage so many - start your OWN business and YOU be the boss!!!

    You probably *do* do more than anyone else here. Certainly more than me.
    Well, I get accused of... what was it "credentialism" or something.... for tooting my own horn, but I get SO TIRED of white crackers thinking they know more about black problems than black people.

    So, I think this will help me understand things a bit. Ignoring Coronavirus, what can I actually do to prevent the next killing in this vein? I don't have the time or resources to meaningfully help others until my kids are at least in high school. I do have more money I can pay in taxes. I can vote for politicians who I am convinced will do the right thing. I would love to be part of the solution.
    Hmmmm.... lemme think on that one, because 'time' is our most valuable asset. Lemme think.

    Ok, so let's agree that someone should have told Arbery that where society is today he has to keep his nose absolutely clean to avoid trouble. What's prong 2 of this plan to "work the problem"?
    I'm not even saying that.

    Look, the "liberal narrative" is on parade here for all to see:
    EVIL WHITE monsters murder totally innocent saintly black person.
    ANY facts that do not fit that narrative are attacked, and anybody who even DARES to look at other mitigating factors has strayed from the narrative and MUST BE SILENCED.
    It's fair for the white crackers to outright LIE about anybody who even tries to seek "just the facts, ma'am".
    You can NOT look at ANYTHING that might prevent future deaths - you can ONLY look at the racism here and blame whitey.
    DENY that there is a liberal narrative here, and attack anybody who suggests that as RACIST!
    We need to USE this crisis to further our charge that nation is hopelessly racist, so it's almost necessary to have more black deaths to scream and yell and virtue signal.
    (that one is a little over the top, but SHEEEEESH, why can't we work ALL SIDES of keeping black people alive?
    Weaponize language to portray the victim in the absolute best possible light, demonize those who were the bad actors, and attack anybody who strays from the narrative.
    Oh yeah, and keep denying there's any narrative, even though everything must comply with it.
    If you point out ANYTHING that doesn't fit squarely with the liberal narrative, accuse that person of defending the attackers and blaming the victim.
    In other words --- LIE!!!! Somehow that's noble, albeit it rather racist in itself.

    It's not limited to liberals (perhaps it is more prevalent, I don't know). But take abortion -- there is a large group who only wants to talk about 1) banning abortion and 2) encouraging abstinence. I can point at plenty of things which (let's stipulate) would reduce the number of abortions compared to what we have today and I am certain I will hit a complete wall of resistance like it sounds like you are hitting in this thread. If you take your religiosity out of the picture for a second do you see what I mean?
    Well, I'm an odd duck there, too. Not denying there's truth to what you're saying, but our OTHER mission is our local pregnancy center where we have volunteer medical doctors and medical staff who support girls in giving birth instead of having abortions, and provide them free medical care, clothing, furniture, formula, food....
    MOST of these girls are black, so I'm a RACIST for that, too.

    Ok, so here's what I'm going to do. If I am responding to you as if you are speaking to "society" at large and not just in a private conversation between a few people I'll let you know. It seems like some of the misunderstanding is coming from you thinking that any of the negative stuff I'm saying is directed at you at all (it's not). I agree with you that Arbery should have known better and someone more adult than him should have made sure he did too.
    So, let's be clear - I APPRECIATE your perspective, and while I might think certain parts are "to me", I don't see anything you've said as combative or quarrelsome. (yet )

    Because I will give my kids advice about how the real world works which I won't say out loud in general conversation because it means something different in 1:1 conversation than when spoken to society at large. Not just because I want to virtue signal.
    Fair enough.

    Delete it then...
    Delete WHAT?

    See above. I hope you understand that some of it at least is well-intentioned and from folks who don't know what else they can do to help the issue.
    Well, back to Leon... I don't think the liberals here actually represent liberalism in general, just the extreme fringe of it.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    So, what I see is.... "racism is a problem, let's have a conversation about it -- but if you don't totally agree with us, then SHUT THE **** UP, you RACIST".

    I'm notoriously not intimated that way.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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