Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Honest Atheist?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Honest Atheist?

    Scripture says that the heavens declare the glory of God, Paul says that unbelievers suppress the truth. Given that, can there be an honest atheist?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Only in their own minds.

    Especially when you read Romans 1 that says nobody has an excuse.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Scripture says that the heavens declare the glory of God, Paul says that unbelievers suppress the truth. Given that, can there be an honest atheist?
      The bible also says everyone has sinned. So can there be such thing as an honest anyone?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        The bible also says everyone has sinned. So can there be such thing as an honest anyone?
        True...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          The bible also says everyone has sinned. So can there be such thing as an honest anyone?
          Which just shows how evil an atheist can be. If we as Christians can sin in spite of having the Holy Spirit as a spiritual restraint to a least some degree, imagine the capabilities of those with no restraint at all. This is why I'm never quick to dismiss evil conspiracy theories among ungodly people no matter how outrageously immoral the theory may be.
          Last edited by seanD; 05-14-2020, 01:04 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Which just shows how evil an atheist can be. If we as Christians can sin in spite of having the Holy Spirit as a spiritual restraint to a least some degree, imagine the capabilities of those with no restraint at all. This is why I'm never quick to dismiss evil conspiracy theories among ungodly people no matter how outrageously immoral the theory may be.
            Can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
              No, I actually truly believe in the supernatural and what the bible says. I don't just give it lip service. I believe in the fall of man. When people say that mankind is generally goodhearted for the most part, well, that's an utter lie. The bible says all man is sinful and wicked and bent towards evil. Of course that doesn't mean humans can't show glimpses of goodness every now and then even without the cajoling of God's spirit, but without that divine guidance, even that goodness will eventually lead to wickedness. As Mossrose stated, Romans 1 sums up that condition perfectly -- "they become vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart is darkened." Now if the Spirit of God within us can't always stop our wicked nature as Christians from turning to sin, then how wicked do you think those without the spirit can get?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                No, I actually truly believe in the supernatural and what the bible says. I don't just give it lip service. I believe in the fall of man. When people say that mankind is generally goodhearted for the most part, well, that's an utter lie. The bible says all man is sinful and wicked and bent towards evil. Of course that doesn't mean humans can't show glimpses of goodness every now and then even without the cajoling of God's spirit, but without that divine guidance, even that goodness will eventually lead to wickedness. As Mossrose stated, Romans 1 sums up that condition perfectly -- "they become vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart is darkened." Now if the Spirit of God within us can't always stop our wicked nature as Christians from turning to sin, then how wicked do you think those without the spirit can get?
                I see. My experience of being a Christian is that the difference in moral conduct comes mainly from seeing more things as wrong, I.e abortion or various purity aspects such as right conduct of sexuality.

                However beyond that it is not my experience that Christians are significantly better morally or necessarily show anymore integrity. Christians are quite capable of spreading falsehoods and rumors of their own. We definitely saw a lot of that during the whole cdesign intelligent proponentists era.

                I lean more towards being sinful and struggling with vices is not what separates a Christian from an atheist.

                I’m curious though what conspiracy theories do you have in mind?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  I see. My experience of being a Christian is that the difference in moral conduct comes mainly from seeing more things as wrong, I.e abortion or various purity aspects such as right conduct of sexuality.

                  However beyond that it is not my experience that Christians are significantly better morally or necessarily show anymore integrity. Christians are quite capable of spreading falsehoods and rumors of their own. We definitely saw a lot of that during the whole cdesign intelligent proponentists era.

                  I lean more towards being sinful and struggling with vices is not what separates a Christian from an atheist.

                  IÂ’m curious though what conspiracy theories do you have in mind?
                  There has to be something supernaturally tangible that sets Christians apart. Otherwise God putting his spirit in us is ineffectual and pointless here and now if it doesn't distinguish us from the nonbeliever. But we know from scripture this is not the case. There is a real divine source (Holy Spirit) put in us that produces a change, and that distinguishes us from the rest of the world, albeit the change is obviously gradual and not consistent in everyone, and we do struggle with this duel nature within us (Romans 7:15-20). This serves as a restraint at least to a degree. IOW, if you see a spirit-filled Christian acting in wicked ways, without that spirit they'd be much much worse. I also believe that if they nurture that spirit, they'll get progressively better, whereas without the spirit, they'd get progressively worse. Positions of power and/or immense wealth I believe also plays into that equation and can amplify that condition in individuals, but that's a whole other story.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I see. My experience of being a Christian is that the difference in moral conduct comes mainly from seeing more things as wrong, I.e abortion or various purity aspects such as right conduct of sexuality.

                    However beyond that it is not my experience that Christians are significantly better morally or necessarily show anymore integrity. Christians are quite capable of spreading falsehoods and rumors of their own. We definitely saw a lot of that during the whole cdesign intelligent proponentists era.

                    I lean more towards being sinful and struggling with vices is not what separates a Christian from an atheist.

                    I’m curious though what conspiracy theories do you have in mind?
                    So do you believe that the honest atheist exists?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I see. My experience of being a Christian is that the difference in moral conduct comes mainly from seeing more things as wrong, I.e abortion or various purity aspects such as right conduct of sexuality.

                      However beyond that it is not my experience that Christians are significantly better morally or necessarily show anymore integrity. Christians are quite capable of spreading falsehoods and rumors of their own. We definitely saw a lot of that during the whole cdesign intelligent proponentists era.

                      I lean more towards being sinful and struggling with vices is not what separates a Christian from an atheist.

                      I’m curious though what conspiracy theories do you have in mind?
                      I agree with you that sinfulness and struggling with vies is not what separates a Christian from an atheist.

                      I believe the separation is the Christian believes and thus acts that God is real and they have a relationship with God. One of the things I get when I read Acts is that they acted out on their believe God exists. They believe in the supernatural world and that we can draw on those resources to help in this world. The atheist by definition is a materialist and is stuck believing only this world matters.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        So do you believe that the honest atheist exists?
                        Honest in the sense that they genuinely don't believe in God? Yes.

                        I don't think they're lying. I don't think it's plausible to believe that they know God exists, but act as if they don't. I do believe God can be known rationally by seeing the world, and even from mystical experiences. Their lack of knowledge about Him, isn't that they're lying, it is that they don't even knock on the door to find out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          There has to be something supernaturally tangible that sets Christians apart. Otherwise God putting his spirit in us is ineffectual and pointless here and now if it doesn't distinguish us from the nonbeliever. But we know from scripture this is not the case. There is a real divine source (Holy Spirit) put in us that produces a change, and that distinguishes us from the rest of the world, albeit the change is obviously gradual and not consistent in everyone, and we do struggle with this duel nature within us (Romans 7:15-20). This serves as a restraint at least to a degree. IOW, if you see a spirit-filled Christian acting in wicked ways, without that spirit they'd be much much worse. I also believe that if they nurture that spirit, they'll get progressively better, whereas without the spirit, they'd get progressively worse. Positions of power and/or immense wealth I believe also plays into that equation and can amplify that condition in individuals, but that's a whole other story.
                          There is something that sets you apart. Christ. You've come to know Christ, and His deeds on the Cross. You've entered the mystery of reconciliation with God. You expect the coming Ressurection. And you love Him.

                          All of those were supernatural gifts. We know that "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you." as Christ told St. Peter. As for the particular doctrines of spiritual restraint I don't believe in those interpretations of those works. I believe any good in the world, whether secular or Christian is ultimate a work of God, because He is Goodness. There isn't anything noteworthy, praiseworthy, excellent, kind or anything that shares even the faintest mote of the good that doesn't come from God. However if there is anything I believe it a possibility to grow in virtue, that is unique to Christians.

                          Christians can grow in Love of Christ, in Hope of the Ressurection and in Faith. This isn't possible outside of The Church. "Gentiles" can't enter into this, and they don't.

                          As for the secular good, if you love God you'll also strive to be good there. This does give Christians a motivating factor in being better people, and certainly, devout Christians who pray a lot often can be better people. But I don't believe for a second that it is impossible, or significantly harder for seculars to grow in virtue.

                          I think in the end it is more a matter of being blinded to truth. Because they've bought into the materialist or relativist narratives, there's a lot of things they don't accept as true and their actions reflect that.

                          I'm curious though about something you said earlier, which you haven't answered: what sorts of conspiracy theories do you entertain about atheists?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            There is something that sets you apart. Christ. You've come to know Christ, and His deeds on the Cross. You've entered the mystery of reconciliation with God. You expect the coming Ressurection. And you love Him.

                            All of those were supernatural gifts. We know that "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you." as Christ told St. Peter. As for the particular doctrines of spiritual restraint I don't believe in those interpretations of those works. I believe any good in the world, whether secular or Christian is ultimate a work of God, because He is Goodness. There isn't anything noteworthy, praiseworthy, excellent, kind or anything that shares even the faintest mote of the good that doesn't come from God. However if there is anything I believe it a possibility to grow in virtue, that is unique to Christians.

                            Christians can grow in Love of Christ, in Hope of the Ressurection and in Faith. This isn't possible outside of The Church. "Gentiles" can't enter into this, and they don't.

                            As for the secular good, if you love God you'll also strive to be good there. This does give Christians a motivating factor in being better people, and certainly, devout Christians who pray a lot often can be better people. But I don't believe for a second that it is impossible, or significantly harder for seculars to grow in virtue.

                            I think in the end it is more a matter of being blinded to truth. Because they've bought into the materialist or relativist narratives, there's a lot of things they don't accept as true and their actions reflect that.

                            I'm curious though about something you said earlier, which you haven't answered: what sorts of conspiracy theories do you entertain about atheists?
                            Atheist leaders killing tens of millions of people in the last century would be an example of conspiracy. I'm sure at the time, this was covered up to the best of their ability (at least in some of the instances that could be covered up). Like if you were in the Soviet Union or China at the time Stalin or Mao was killing these folks, I'm sure the perpetrators involved would have denied it and classified you as a conspiracy theorist (hypothetically assuming the word existed at that time, which it didn't).

                            So how do you reconcile Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, and Romans 1:21, just to name a few passages like this, with Christians being born again?
                            Last edited by seanD; 05-16-2020, 10:54 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              Atheist leaders killing tens of millions of people in the last century would be an example of conspiracy. I'm sure at the time, this was covered up to the best of their ability (at least in some of the instances that could be covered up). Like if you were in the Soviet Union or China at the time Stalin or Mao was killing these folks, I'm sure the perpetrators involved would have denied it and classified you as a conspiracy theorist (hypothetically assuming the word existed at that time, which it didn't).
                              I wouldn't call those conspiracy theories as much as I would call them history. I understand what you mean then.

                              So how do you reconcile Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, and Romans 1:21, just to name a few passages like this, with Christians being born again?
                              I'm a Catholic, we don't really have a concept of 'born again', except by baptism. You enter into the Church when you are baptized. This doesn't kill the old man, you are still you. All the habits and vices you've accrued throughout your whole life are still there, all the inclinations are there. But what has changed is that you're now a member of the Church, and you've entered into the mystery of reconciliation with God.

                              I'd consider the first two passages to apply to all men, including Christians. The latter seems to be more specific about the gentiles who were judged and had their hearts darkened.

                              I'm not saying that grace is ineffectual. I believe if a person works with it, you can grow as a Christian. But as a Catholic, I believe it takes your own participation as well. God might be holding out a hand, but if the person doesn't take it, then he doesn't benefit. However, all of this is also available to people outside of the Church, but atheists can't grow in the theological virtues.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                              35 responses
                              166 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                              4 responses
                              49 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                              Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                              10 responses
                              119 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post mikewhitney  
                              Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                              14 responses
                              72 views
                              3 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                              13 responses
                              60 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Working...
                              X