The Honest Atheist?

[Leonhard]

But isn't unbelief the greatest sin? The first commandment?

The first command is to love God. I don't think this is possible to do in any way pleasing to Him outside of The Church. It's very reasonable to that you need to believe in God, in order to love Him, and you can't love him by proxy of loving His works.

However I also offered to you that it could be a sin, and that wouldn't be an unreasonable interpretation if in fact atheists have been given the opportunity to be able to come to know God, but they neglect that responsibility.

Do you feel they need to secretly know that God exists, in order to be guilty?

[seer]

The first command is to love God. I don't think this is possible to do in any way pleasing to Him outside of The Church. It's very reasonable to that you need to believe in God, in order to love Him, and you can't love him by proxy of loving His works.

However I also offered to you that it could be a sin, and that wouldn't be an unreasonable interpretation if in fact atheists have been given the opportunity to be able to come to know God, but they neglect that responsibility.

Do you feel they need to secretly know that God exists, in order to be guilty?

To me, if they honestly believe that God doesn't exist they seem to have an excuse. Where if like Paul suggests, that knowledge of God is clear for all to see and they suppress that knowledge, then they are guilty.

[Leonhard]

To me, if they honestly believe that God doesn't exist they seem to have an excuse. Where if like Paul suggests, that knowledge of God is clear for all to see and they suppress that knowledge, then they are guilty.

What do believe suppressing knowledge amounts to? It seems you have in mind someone who really believes in God, but won't admit it in public?

[Leonhard]

Also I'm still not certain that this phrase is saying that atheists know that God exists, it seems to be addressing the kinds of people who suppress the Christians from evangelizing. The wicked romans in fact. St. Paul goes into all the details about their depravity.

[seer]

What do believe suppressing knowledge amounts to? It seems you have in mind someone who really believes in God, but won't admit it in public?

That we know that God exists but will not bow a knee = Pride; no god, no masters...

[seer]

Also I'm still not certain that this phrase is saying that atheists know that God exists, it seems to be addressing the kinds of people who suppress the Christians from evangelizing. The wicked romans in fact. St. Paul goes into all the details about their depravity.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. .

Who doesn't that include?

[KingsGambit]

From the same Bible book, Romans 10:14:
can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them?

We need to reconcile these statements. I would suggest that Romans 1 only suggests a general knowledge of God, or that one should at least be able to conclude he exists. I don't agree with Sye ten Bruggencate's cruasde about how atheism doesn't exist.

[Leonhard]

That we know that God exists but will not bow a knee = Pride; no god, no masters...

I have hard time believing that the Bible has to be read like that, mostly because that wasn't what I experienced as an atheist growing up. But beyond that I don't think such a specific reading is neccessary.

You believe that if they are honest in their disbelief, then they have an excuse in violating the first commandment? However I've suggested to you that if in fact they could know, if they showed due dilligence in knowing truth, then they could still be held accountable. Just like we can hold someone accountable for violating a traffic law, because we can reasonable expect of them to know these things.

What would you say to this interpretation?

[seanD]

From the same Bible book, Romans 10:14:
can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them?

We need to reconcile these statements. I would suggest that Romans 1 only suggests a general knowledge of God, or that one should at least be able to conclude he exists. I don't agree with Sye ten Bruggencate's cruasde about how atheism doesn't exist.

The two sentences at the end sound like a contradiction.

[seanD]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. .

Who doesn't that include?

It's even MORE evident now with what we know about molecular biology and the dynamic detailed structures of the cosmos. This generation will face the worse judgement out of all previous generations.

[Sparko]

To me, if they honestly believe that God doesn't exist they seem to have an excuse. Where if like Paul suggests, that knowledge of God is clear for all to see and they suppress that knowledge, then they are guilty.

Even if they honestly believe God doesn't exist, that doesn't give them an excuse to sin. As Romans 2 says, God gives everyone a conscience to know good from evil. So when they do what they know in their heart to be wrong, their conscience accuses them and they will face judgment for those sins.

[JonathanL]

Also I'm still not certain that this phrase is saying that atheists know that God exists, it seems to be addressing the kinds of people who suppress the Christians from evangelizing. The wicked romans in fact. St. Paul goes into all the details about their depravity.

The kinds of people Paul writes about in the end of chapter 1 and continues into chapter 2 are all mankind (except Jews, which he takes up separately to show that even though they have the written Law, they still fail to live up to it) who live in rebellion against God. This is clear from what he writes in chapter 3:

"For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin"

Already denoting something he wrote previously, and the only possible thing he can be referring to is back to chapter 1 and onwards, when he accuses people of forsaking the knowledge of God for vain idols, debauchery and all sorts of other sins, and to his condemnation of the Jew's vain attempt to attain righteousness through the written Law and their hypocrisy in trying to teach others God's will when they're unable to live up to it themselves. "All, both Jews and Greeks" is obviously Paul's way of speaking of humanity as a whole. It doesn't literally mean just Jews and Greeks.

In other words, "the kinds of people" Paul speak about in chapter 1 are not just "those who suppress the Christians from evangelizing", it is mankind as a whole, separated from, and in rebellion to God.

[Rushing Jaws]

So do you believe that the honest atheist exists?

: shoving oar in :

[Maranatha]

Scripture says that the heavens declare the glory of God, Paul says that unbelievers suppress the truth. Given that, can there be an honest atheist?

Certainly, atheists can be and are honest, likely no more or less than the general population on most things.

For instance I've read plenty of atheists who say they have no problem believing God exists, they just think God is evil. That's being honest.

The scriptures tell us man has no excuse, and I believe it, I accept it. Perhaps it is difficult for some believers to accept that when an atheist says they reject Christ, they really mean it.

It is much better, but maybe more self deceiving, to claim one hasn't made a choice about Christ, they remain 'neutral', waiting for further evidence that God exists. I am supposed to ignore their advocacy against Christ, mind you, their own words telling me of their opposition to Christ.

And really, are these things not describing a spiritual experience?

The scriptures tell us the word of God is alive, living and active. We are not merely communicating ideas.

I am of the belief that when a man hears the gospel, it is not merely words, the Holy Spirit is there, the same power that empowers us. I think God has a very different viewpoint about it. We may mouth words, it is the Spirit who searches the man's heart.

Really, it is impossible for a believer to think the gospel doesn't create this divide. Its purpose is to separate the sheep from the goats, the believers from the unbelievers, children from parents, brother from brother.

So for me, the honest atheist is one who says they reject Christ, at a minimum. After all, one doesn't proclaim themselves an atheist with rejecting everything else, right? Don't they tell us how they examine religions and their claims?

Biblically there is nowhere to stand for the atheist, the only ledge to stand on is Jesus Christ, and they've already said they have rejected that ledge. One doesn't reject but not reject, right?

Sin, righteousness, judgement, the Spirit has taught us that conviction is not a choice when a man hears the gospel, the Spirit ensures it, empowers it. Still, the Spirit contends with man, and atheists have come to know the Lord, even after running away. I didn't think anything about God until I was an adult, there is always hope until the end.