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The Nature of Time: A-Theory vs. B-Theory

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    So I have been cogitating more on the nature of spacetime and such.

    I am starting to like the growing block universe theory.

    Basically the universe is 4 dimensional bubble of space-time that started at a point and started growing.

    The "space" part of spacetime is constantly expanding the universe larger and larger, more "space" is being created all the time.

    Well since time is just one of the 4 dimensions of spacetime, it also is expanding, more time is being created which allows space to expand. So you can think of spacetime as a bubble that grows from the big bang to now.

    From any selected time period in the history of the universe, you would see a different size bubble. At 1 minute after the big bang the universe might be 1 light year across. Now it is much larger, 93 billion light years in diameter.

    So the bubble contains the present and the past, but there is no future because it hasn't expanded there yet.

    The expansion is caused by whatever energy started the big bang. The universe has a set amount of energy, which means as it expands that energy is "diluted", (the further back in time you go, the denser it is.) That is what causes entropy. Which means it would be very hard to travel into the past because you are trying to go to a higher energy state. That is why time is one way. And the future doesn't exist yet (from your point of view) so you can't travel to it, and you have free will.

    But let's say I am here in 2023 and I can see the past and I have enough energy to overcome entropy and travel to the past. 1973.

    Poof I do it. But then I have a problem. I am now in a universe that is only 1973 sized in expansion. It hasn't expanded to 2023 size yet. The 2023 future doesn't exist for the 1973 universe. So I can never go home. My 'now' is now 1973.

    It still allows for God who is outside of all of this to see the future, even though for people stuck in the bubble at any given point, the future doesn't exist.
    Perhaps you could answer this question. What exactly is this "space-time" that is expanding?

    I like the way you just assert we have free will too. Not that it's not a possibility, but most physicists that I've read don't see any evidence for the existence of free will within the laws of physics.
    Last edited by JimL; 11-07-2023, 04:43 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Perhaps you could answer this question. What exactly is this "space-time" that is expanding?

      I like the way you just assert we have free will too. Not that it's not a possibility, but most physicists that I've read don't see any evidence for the existence of free will within the laws of physics.
      I understand that physicists don't see any evidence for love within the laws of physics either so we can safely discount its existence.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #78
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        I understand that physicists don't see any evidence for love within the laws of physics either so we can safely discount its existence.
        Love is not an existing thing in itself, rogue. Love is something one feels, just like free will is something you feel. So yes, you can discount the existence of love just like free will since neither is a thing in itself.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Perhaps you could answer this question. What exactly is this "space-time" that is expanding?

          I like the way you just assert we have free will too. Not that it's not a possibility, but most physicists that I've read don't see any evidence for the existence of free will within the laws of physics.
          In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

          And if I have no free will then I had no choice in how or what I "asserted,", eh?



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          • #80
            If there is no free will then Little jimmy should stop complaining about "Trumpsters."

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              If there is no free will then Little jimmy should stop complaining about "Trumpsters."
              I don't want to bring politics into this thread.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                I don't want to bring politics into this thread.
                Sorry. Just making the point that if there is no free will then there is no responsibility.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Sorry. Just making the point that if there is no free will then there is no responsibility.
                  well if there is no free will you can't help it if you feel responsible either.

                  But the growing block theory allows for free will because new time is being created and what we call "now" is like surfing the wave of that new time. What we do becomes "recorded" in the past, but since there is no future until it is created, then we are free to do what we want.

                  Of course, to someone like JimL who believes in complete deterministic materialism, time being created doesn't mean free will because he thinks all of our choices are just materialistic atoms doing their thing. All thoughts are just reactions to prior actions and so on. We are just mechanical robots that think we are free because our brains evolved to think that. And in the case of JimL, I believe he is correct.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

                    And if I have no free will then I had no choice in how or what I "asserted,", eh?

                    A mathematical model simply describes the spacetime mathematically, it doesn't tell you what space and or time actually is. Matter exists in spacetime, but what exactly is this spacetime itself made of or is there any such thing as spacetime within the which matter exists. I've been asking this question "what exactly is space itself" forever, and have never found an answer.

                    And you are correct, if our brains function according to the laws of physics as we understand them, (as does all other matter in the universe), then you had no choice but to answer me the way you did. Free will may just be the greatest illusion of our existence.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      If there is no free will then Little jimmy should stop complaining about "Trumpsters."
                      If there is no free will then none of us, including you, have any choice in what we learn, think, or do.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Sorry. Just making the point that if there is no free will then there is no responsibility.
                        Hmm, that's Einsteins view. No free will I haven't come to that conclusion and so I will continue to act as though I have free will, but so far as we know, we don't. It doesn't exist( according to physical law) in so far as we understand physical laws.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          well if there is no free will you can't help it if you feel responsible either.

                          But the growing block theory allows for free will because new time is being created and what we call "now" is like surfing the wave of that new time. What we do becomes "recorded" in the past, but since there is no future until it is created, then we are free to do what we want.

                          Of course, to someone like JimL who believes in complete deterministic materialism, time being created doesn't mean free will because he thinks all of our choices are just materialistic atoms doing their thing. All thoughts are just reactions to prior actions and so on. We are just mechanical robots that think we are free because our brains evolved to think that. And in the case of JimL, I believe he is correct.
                          There is no growing block theory. That doesn't make sense. It's called the block theory because it is a block, it's all there past, present and future. In the block theory the spacetime doesnt expand into the future, the future already exists. And I don't believe any theory absolutely because nothing is factually, with certainty, known.

                          Also you're idea of new time being created, if accurate, doesn't translate to free will

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post

                            A mathematical model simply describes the spacetime mathematically, it doesn't tell you what space and or time actually is. Matter exists in spacetime, but what exactly is this spacetime itself made of or is there any such thing as spacetime within the which matter exists. I've been asking this question "what exactly is space itself" forever, and have never found an answer.

                            And you are correct, if our brains function according to the laws of physics as we understand them, (as does all other matter in the universe), then you had no choice but to answer me the way you did. Free will may just be the greatest illusion of our existence.
                            What substance it is "made of" is not known. It is not matter, or energy, it is what matter and energy exist in. I am not a physicist so I can't tell you, but I don't think even physicists know. They can describe it with math and they have various theories, but nobody knows. We do know it can be stretched, curved, compressed, etc (that's what gravity is, the curvature of spacetime).

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post

                              If there is no free will then none of us, including you, have any choice in what we learn, think, or do.
                              And yet you do have a choice and make the choices all the time. So your experience is at odds with your beliefs about the nature of the universe. If we had no free will, all decisions and learning would be random noise, we would have no civilization or intelligence. There would be no reason to ever come up with a theory of general relativity in the first place, for example, nor to ponder on what free will is.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post

                                There is no growing block theory. That doesn't make sense. It's called the block theory because it is a block, it's all there past, present and future. In the block theory the spacetime doesnt expand into the future, the future already exists. And I don't believe any theory absolutely because nothing is factually, with certainty, known.

                                Also you're idea of new time being created, if accurate, doesn't translate to free will
                                Yes, there is a Growing Block Theory. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_block_universe

                                or google it yourself.

                                And we know that spacetime is expanding and that it was smaller in the past (big bang) and that it will be larger in the future, so you saying that spacetime doesn't expand into the future is just wrong.

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