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Thread: Origin of life - a response

  1. #21
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not documented by a scientific reference outside an assertion by Miller. 'Miller says' does not cut the mustard.
    Well, this thread was opened to discuss what Miller said, so what he said is pertinent in this thread.

    In fact the energy involved is not even related to supposed proton flow(?) any more or less than life processes themselves.
    Life processes are indeed very much dependent on proton flow, there are proton pumps in cell membranes that maintain a critical gradient.

    I have cited before and may cite them again the natural processes that lead to the formation early life, was assisted by catalysts such iron minerals.
    Yet we are far from an origin-of-life scenario, as evidenced by the many types of proposals for this.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #22
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Does "i take it" mean "i guess", or does it mean "i have done detailed research into this debate"?
    I read the article that Rogue posted, and have checked some other references.

    Also, if present day bacteria can use the chemical energy embodied in hydrogen sulfide, why couldn't earlier cells do the same?
    They could indeed use hydrogen sulfide, and they need proton pumps as well. The latter was what was in question.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #23
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    They could indeed use hydrogen sulfide, and they need proton pumps as well. The latter was what was in question.
    Do they really? What do you base that on?

    Incidentally, the fact that you made this statement suggests that the answer to my earlier question is no, you haven't looked into the issue in detail.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  4. #24
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Who are either of these people and why should we care what they think?
    Well, that's a bit harsh. It shouldn't matter who they are, as long as they present coherent and valid arguments. Also, I usually don't defend Lee, but maybe he just thought that ''these people'' presented interesting points (in his opinion, of course) that he felt he could share with others (that's the function of an internet forum, after all)...

  5. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  6. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, this thread was opened to discuss what Miller said, so what he said is pertinent in this thread.
    Are you saying just because Miller made the claims, than that makes it true?

    . . . but Miller has made some claims that he does not corroborate with scientific references that support his assertions, and I have provided references that say no energy is not an issue concerning abiogenesis. and the Lurch has described situations cerning the energy relationships in primitive life that demonstrate Miller's claims are unsupportable. Again Miller simply making claims is not a coherent argument.

    Still waiting for supporting scientific literature supporting Miller's claims.


    Life processes are indeed very much dependent on proton flow, there are proton pumps in cell membranes that maintain a critical gradient.
    True, but there is more than abundant energy available and the requirement for abiogenesis is in the forming the basic particles of life as demonstrated in my reference. The development of the proton pump is not necessary for the energy required for the initial formation of life, when there is abundant energy from natural sources. .

    Yet we are far from an origin-of-life scenario, as evidenced by the many types of proposals for this.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You have not cited any of these proposals for this.

    First this is an argument from ignorance, as usual, as you claiming that you believe the solution for abiogenesis is not achieved.

    Pease note from your source. Did you read it?

    "So far, we have hydrogen ions moving downhill through transporters and releasing energy. We also have these ions moving uphill, into areas of higher concentration, using a proton pump. Pumping against a gradient can be difficult, so the job of proton pumps is hard work. There is one pump that isn't as strong, and so acts a little out of the ordinary. It is called the Proton Pyrophosphatase Pump. "

    Source: https://europepmc.org/article/med/10523139



    H+ -PPases: a tightly membrane-bound family.
    Baltscheffsky M1, Schultz A, Baltscheffsky H

    The earliest known H+-PPase (proton-pumping inorganic pyrophosphatase), the integrally membrane-bound H+-PPi synthase (proton-pumping inorganic pyrophosphate synthase) from Rhodospirillum rubrum, is still the only alternative to H+-ATP synthase in biological electron transport phosphorylation. Cloning of several higher plant vacuolar H+-PPase genes has led to the recognition that the corresponding proteins form a family of extremely similar proton-pumping enzymes. The bacterial H+-PPi synthase and two algal vacuolar H+-PPases are homologous with this family, as deduced from their cloned genes. The prokaryotic and algal homologues differ more than the H+-PPases from higher plants, facilitating recognition of functionally significant entities. Primary structures of H+-PPases are reviewed and compared with H+-ATPases and soluble PPases.

    © Copyright Original Source




    Source: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2014.1140



    The Fuel Cell Model of Abiogenesis: A New Approach to Origin-of-Life Simulations
    Laura M. Barge, Terence P. Kee, Ivria J. Doloboff, Joshua M.P. Hampton, Mohammed Ismail, Mohamed Pourkashanian, John Zeytounian, Marc M. Baum, John A. Moss, Chung-Kuang Lin, Richard D. Kidd, and Isik Kanik

    In this paper, we discuss how prebiotic geo-electrochemical systems can be modeled as a fuel cell and how laboratory simulations of the origin of life in general can benefit from this systems-led approach. As a specific example, the components of what we have termed the “prebiotic fuel cell” (PFC) that operates at a putative Hadean hydrothermal vent are detailed, and we used electrochemical analysis techniques and proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell components to test the properties of this PFC and other geo-electrochemical systems, the results of which are reported here. The modular nature of fuel cells makes them ideal for creating geo-electrochemical reactors with which to simulate hydrothermal systems on wet rocky planets and characterize the energetic properties of the seafloor/hydrothermal interface. That electrochemical techniques should be applied to simulating the origin of life follows from the recognition of the fuel cell–like properties of prebiotic chemical systems and the earliest metabolisms. Conducting this type of laboratory simulation of the emergence of bioenergetics will not only be informative in the context of the origin of life on Earth but may help in understanding whether life might emerge in similar environments on other worlds. Key Words: Astrobiology—Bioenergetics—Iron sulfides—Origin of life—Prebiotic chemistry. Astrobiology 14, 254–270.

    © Copyright Original Source



    You have not cited one peer researched article to support Miller.

    Actually if memory serves me right this is a Ground Hog Day topic and has been covered before. More sources to follow.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-20-2020 at 07:21 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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  7. #26
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Well, that's a bit harsh. It shouldn't matter who they are, as long as they present coherent and valid arguments. Also, I usually don't defend Lee, but maybe he just thought that ''these people'' presented interesting points (in his opinion, of course) that he felt he could share with others (that's the function of an internet forum, after all)...
    I'd be ok with that if there actually were "coherent and valid arguments." Unfortunately, what I got instead was stuff like this: "Significant quantities of information must also be present both to steer a highly specific set of interconnected chemical reactions that comprise a minimally viable cell and to direct the generated energy toward powering the otherwise nonspontaneous reactions." Which is a combination of excessively fancy language to say the obvious (ie - cells need energy) and terms like "information" that are completely undefined in this context.

    So, there's nothing here to evaluate. And, as i'm sure you're aware, there's no shortage of uninformed opinions on the internet. Since i'm going to have to figure out what the arguments are on my own, i think it's perfectly fair to determine in advance whether that's worth my time.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  8. #27
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Well, that's a bit harsh. It shouldn't matter who they are, as long as they present coherent and valid arguments. Also, I usually don't defend Lee, but maybe he just thought that ''these people'' presented interesting points (in his opinion, of course) that he felt he could share with others (that's the function of an internet forum, after all)...
    I do not think The Lurch is being to harsh since this is a Ground Hog Day topic that has been around for a looong time. I find my self citing the same literature I cited before.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #28
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I read the article that Rogue posted

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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  10. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Since i'm going to have to figure out what the arguments are on my own, i think it's perfectly fair to determine in advance whether that's worth my time.
    I have to admit that that seems very fair.

  11. #30
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Do they really? What do you base that on?
    Well, on Wikipedia we read:

    Source: Wikipedia

    In cell respiration, the proton pump uses energy to transport protons from the matrix of the mitochondrion to the inter-membrane space.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    So proton pumps would seem to be widespread, in eukaryotes, and then in bacteria, some of these would apply:

    Source: Wikipedia

    The energy required for the proton pumping reaction may come from light (light energy; bacteriorhodopsins), electron transfer (electrical energy; electron transport complexes I, III and IV) or energy-rich metabolites (chemical energy) such as pyrophosphate (PPi; proton-pumping pyrophosphatase) or adenosine triphosphate (ATP; proton ATPases). … Complex III is present in the inner mitochondrial membrane of all aerobic eukaryotes and the inner membranes of most eubacteria.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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