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Thread: Origin of life - a response

  1. #51
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Which we know release sufficient chemical to power modern metabolisms. And you claimed they didn't have sufficient power to handle extremely primitive cells. It's a phenomenally dumb statement.
    But that's not what is being said.

    Your attempted way around it is to claim they don't have a sufficient proton gradient to power ATP production. But, as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed.
    That is sheer speculation, though.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #52
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But that's not what is being said.
    Unless you change your whole story telling line. That is what is being said.


    That is sheer speculation, though.
    That describes your whole story line in one brief sentence.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #53
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But that's not what is being said.
    Then explain what, exactly, is being said.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That is sheer speculation, though.
    Lee's argument, this entire thread: ATP production through environmental proton gradients couldn't have evolved at hydrothermal vents.

    Me: It probably didn't evolve through that mechanism.

    Lee's response: That's sheer speculation!

    Me:
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  4. Amen Boxing Pythagoras amen'd this post.
  5. #54
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Then explain what, exactly, is being said.
    The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.

    Lee's response: That's sheer speculation!

    Me:
    Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #55
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.
    This is demonstrated as false. No 'race car' necessary.


    Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."
    Again . . . again. . . and again, not just speculation. The problem as usual your 'argument from ignorance' does not provide any evidence that would determine what cannot happen.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #56
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.
    That's simply false. There are many many promising means of energy production. Proton transport doesn't even play a role until you've already got an ATP based metabolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."
    The whole point of the argument you're promoting is that an ATP-focused metabolism generated by proton transport is REALLY HARD. I'm actually agreeing with that. It's right. So what's the scientific alternative? A non-ATP focused metabolism that later evolved to use ATP. In that sense, it's far less speculative than the arguments you're advancing - the scientific one, which is that proton-gradient-powered production of ATP was present in the earliest cells (which, again, is really hard and therefore unlikely) or, your preferred, non-scientific alternative, that magic happened.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  8. Amen Boxing Pythagoras, Seeker amen'd this post.

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