Originally posted by lee_merrill
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Origin of life - a response
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAre you saying just because Miller made the claims, than that makes it true?
... I have provided references that say no energy is not an issue concerning abiogenesis.
The development of the proton pump is not necessary for the energy required for the initial formation of life, when there is abundant energy from natural sources.
First this is an argument from ignorance, as usual, as you claiming that you believe the solution for abiogenesis is not achieved.
"So far, we have hydrogen ions moving downhill through transporters and releasing energy. We also have these ions moving uphill, into areas of higher concentration, using a proton pump. Pumping against a gradient can be difficult, so the job of proton pumps is hard work. There is one pump that isn't as strong, and so acts a little out of the ordinary. It is called the Proton Pyrophosphatase Pump. "
And I can't look behind the paywall to read further, though it does seem odd to think of organisms starting with fuel cells first.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostAnd what about that indicates the earliest cells needed them?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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[QUOTE=lee_merrill;740246]No, that opens the topic for discussion.
No energy would indeed be an issue.
Well, proton pumps are common in cells, they provide energy for making ATP, for instance. Are you saying proton pumps developed after the first cells?
I have cited references, you have cited nothing to support Miller's assertions, except a reference that agrees with me.
Still waitingGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBecause they're so widespread in usage, across cell types and microorganisms and multicellular creatures."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBecause they're so widespread in usage, across cell types and microorganisms and multicellular creatures.
Blessings,
Lee
The problem of entropy remains a bogus Discovery Institute misunderstanding of basic physics.
Still waiting for peer reviewed research that supports Millers assertions. . .Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-21-2020, 10:13 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMy references clearly indicate that no 'racecar' is needed in abiogenesis.
So what we have here is an idea, not a tested procedure.
Yes, of course, that is the result of abiogenesis, based on the references cited. The proton pumps do not require significant energy, as cited.
I have cited references, you have cited nothing to support Miller's assertions, except a reference that agrees with me.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by lee_merrill; 05-22-2020, 12:36 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostThat just suggests an early cell had them, not every early cell needed them.
So why not put it at the very start?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, it was apparently early in the history of life:
So why not put it at the very start?
Blessings,
Lee
The inability to recognize those sorts of differences is exactly what i'd fear happening when a bunch of physicists start talking about the origin of life."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostBecause there's almost certainly a very big difference between the first primitive cells and the last universal common ancestor. The ATP synthase/proton gradient was almost certainly present at the latter stage, explaining its omnipresence today. But it was almost certainly not present at the stage of the first primitive cells, which were very likely to drive their metabolisms by directly incorporating chemicals found in their environments, rather than by burning through ATP.
The inability to recognize those sorts of differences is exactly what i'd fear happening when a bunch of physicists start talking about the origin of life.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, that may be, but see the quote by Harold Morowitz the biophysicist above."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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I realize, that for people who aren't Lee, it's probably worth elaborating what's going on here.
All indications are that the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) of life on earth existed over 3 billion years ago. That means current organisms have had billions of years to:
Evolve extremely efficient ways of extracting energy from their environment.
Evolve an elaborate metabolism to match their energy input.
I don't think i'm going out on a limb to say that, if you kept the modern metabolism, but swapped in the energy harvesting abilities of LUCA, the resulting cells would die. They would be completely unable to produce the levels of energy that the whole rest of the cell needs to function. Billions of years of evolution will do that.
But LUCA likely came hundreds of millions of years after the first primitive cells. And the difference here is likely to be even more striking. The first primitive cells likely had a series of unconnected metabolisms sharing a membrane with something that could replicate RNAs. They were almost certainly entirely dependent upon their environment for both energy and key molecules that were central to their metabolism. You likely couldn't do the same experiment of swapping their energy-harvesting portion of metabolism into LUCA, simply because they didn't have a unified energy harvesting system.
How could something like this constantly harvest fresh, energy-rich molecules from its environment? Probably one or both of two ways. In some cases, like geothermal vents, environmental processes provide a constant flow of energy rich molecules. In other cases, cyclical processes can drive the formation of molecules that won't form under average conditions. For example, ATP won't form spontaneously from a watery solution of AMP and phosphate. But if you dehydrate the solution, then it can form, since the addition of phosphates liberates a water molecule.
It's because of these issues that the apparent argument here, to the extent that Lee has elaborated anything at all, becomes standard creationist fare. If you take a bunch of average conditions, many energy rich molecules won't form. And if you try to power a full LUCA-like metabolism - or even worse, a modern metabolism - with the sorts of molecules that likely did form, they'll fail. And the creationist argument is that, therefore, it's impossible for life to have formed. But the reality is that the conditions they're trying to limit consideration to - nothing but average conditions, a relatively high-powered metabolism - are pretty much irrelevant to what the first cells were actually doing. And they were doing much less than more modern organisms like LUCA.
It's the standard creationist approach of taking a start and end point that are very distant, ignoring all the possible transition states in between them, and then declaring that the full leap between the two is impossible.Last edited by TheLurch; 05-23-2020, 04:14 PM."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNo, that opens the topic for discussion.
No energy would indeed be an issue.
Well, proton pumps are common in cells, they provide energy for making ATP, for instance. Are you saying proton pumps developed after the first cells?
No, this is an observation.
Well, fine, but I'm not sure why you are pointing this out.
And I can't look behind the paywall to read further, though it does seem odd to think of organisms starting with fuel cells first.
Blessings,
Lee
LUCA did not suddenly appear with the wave of a wand. It evolved from more primitive organic forms as the sources describe.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThis article concludes with:
So what we have here is an idea, not a tested procedure.
As cited where?
Here is a reference:
Blessings,
Lee
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostIf you take a bunch of average conditions, many energy rich molecules won't form. And if you try to power a full LUCA-like metabolism - or even worse, a modern metabolism - with the sorts of molecules that likely did form, they'll fail. And the creationist argument is that, therefore, it's impossible for life to have formed.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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